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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#191

Post by saubeidl »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #156
layer8 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for example: https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-p... https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf

The first one is bad indeed, but what's so "authoritarian" about the rest? > https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... Other European countries like Switzerland, also banned full face veils(burqas) in public. Try entering a bank, city hall, school, etc with a balaclava, ski mask or motorcycle helmet see how that goes. > https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf Allowing the surveillanc…

If you find yourself agreeing with authoritarians, it might be time to reassess your views.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#192

Post by alsetmusic »

zaphar wrote: post #101
layer8 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they position themselves against it, because they have a narrative similar to the (former) “deep state” narrative in the US, but you can be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it.

I'm not familiar with the far right in Germany. Why should we be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it?

> I'm not familiar with the far right in Germany. Why should we be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it?

In addition to the authoritarian aspect pointed out by a sibling comment, the far-right generally consider the ends to justify the means because of their sense of righteousness. They will compromise their values to get what they want (control over others). Just look at the hypocrisy of the free-speech absolutists on twitter who have no complaints over Lonnie shutting down Leftist accounts.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#195

Post by Uupis »

varispeed wrote: post #173
ho_schi wrote: post #145

The CDU/CSU is doing something good. That didn't happened for a long time? I appreciate it. Ausgerechnet Spahn. Manchmal glaubt man seinen Augen und Ohren nicht. Wir müssen Wachsam bleiben. Mit dem Argument das es böse Menschen gibt, wurde schon viel böses getan. Massenüberwachung zerstört jede Gesellschaft. Deutschland hat mehrfach darunter gelitten. Und die Versuche Massenüberwachung einzuführen wiederholen sich.

The reaction is very weak, though. Chat Control is an act of terrorism and it should have triggered criminal investigation why this has gone this far. Before you downvote: If terrorism is defined as using violence or threats to intimidate a population for political or ideological ends, then “Chat Control” qualifies in substance. Violence doesn’t have to leave blood. Psychological and coercive violence is recognised i…

I'm inclined to agree. I do feel terrorized by the mere prospect of total surveillance, and I can't imagine that's not the end goal here.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#196

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #187
xethos wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trying to contrain them with laws ex ante hasn't worked since like Cicero This isn't so much about making Chat Control illegal (thereby containing or limiting future authoritarians) as it is not setting up the infrastructure for them to wield as soon as they win an election. I'd argue the current stance of being opposed to Chat Control is more like "Don't collect religious affiliation on the census" - meaning we ca…

> not setting up the infrastructure for them to wield as soon as they win an election Fair enough, you’re right. If they’re incompetent authoritarians (or just non-authoritarian right-wingers), this could mitigate the damage.

>> Fair enough, you’re right.

read both of your comments and was wondering what happens if both of you were correct.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#197

Post by serbuvlad »

voldacar wrote: post #183

The EU tries something like this every few years. If you don't want this to happen, you have to win every time, while they only have to win once. It's an unsustainable situation.

Yep. And that's exactly why the EU has the structure it does.

Unfortunately the only country that ever left proceeded to shoot itself in both knees, light itself on fire and jump in a pool of gasoline. For NO reason.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#198

Post by [deleted] »

Uupis wrote: post #195
varispeed wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reaction is very weak, though. Chat Control is an act of terrorism and it should have triggered criminal investigation why this has gone this far. Before you downvote: If terrorism is defined as using violence or threats to intimidate a population for political or ideological ends, then “Chat Control” qualifies in substance. Violence doesn’t have to leave blood. Psychological and coercive violence is recognised i…

I'm inclined to agree. I do feel terrorized by the mere prospect of total surveillance, and I can't imagine that's not the end goal here.

[deleted]

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#199

Post by ajsnigrutin »

shevy-java wrote: post #45

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

They'll do nothing now, people don't want it, people complain, it's a bad thing politically. They'll wait for a year, people will forget, a new proposal for "Clean Chat" will appear, with effectively the same measures, they'll try to pass it quietly, maybe no one will notice, maybe there will be a terrorist attack or something similar by then, and more people will want it, and if it fails again, rinse and repeat a year after.

They only need to succeed once, we (the ones opposing the law) have to succeed every time.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#200

Post by chr15m »

voldacar wrote: post #183

The EU tries something like this every few years. If you don't want this to happen, you have to win every time, while they only have to win once. It's an unsustainable situation.

Just like breathing, sleeping, and eating, you will always have to oppose tyranny. People who seek control will always try to get more. As long as ordinary people sustain strong opposition in word and deed it is sustainable, just like breathing.
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