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TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

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Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#191

Post by sgarland »

dakiol wrote: post #27
justinclift wrote: post #13

> In less than a decade, the world has become at least three orders of magnitude more transactional. And yet the SQL databases we still use to power this are 20-30 years old. Can they hold up? Errr yes. Without much sweat really. Just because something started ~30 years ago doesn't mean it hasn't updated with the times, and doesn't mean it was built on bad foundations.

I disagree. If we are talking about distributed systems in which we have N different databases, then distributed transactions are left as an exercise to the reader (that’s why we have things like Sagas). Within a single machine, yeah, relational dbs still work like a charm.

Tbf, this is a natural consequence of companies doing premature optimization / cargo culting. There are many, many reasons to NOT go into microservices. Kelsey Hightower had some thoughts on this [0] back in 2020.

You can run a hell of a lot off of a small fleet of beefy servers fronted with a load balancer, all pointing to one DB cluster.

[0]: https://changelog.com/posts/monoliths-are-the-future

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#192

Post by jorangreef »

gwbas1c wrote: post #165

OMG as I read this I became hyper-skeptical by the end. Some points: In general, in very tangible terms, what are the real benefits for choosing TigerBeetle over another distributed database? What are the target use cases? Most of the article is pontificating about academic details in a way that's putting the cart before the horse. (IE, all these details don't matter when a traditional database with traditional backu…

> In general, in very tangible terms, what are the real benefits for choosing TigerBeetle over another distributed database?

Transaction processing at scale. The world doesn't need another string database. TigerBeetle is an integer database designed for (double-entry) counting, even under extreme write contention.

See also our 1000x talk going into what only TB can do (and why stored procedures still suffer from concurrency control in the internal storage engine): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKgfk8lTQuE

> Do you mean to say that Oracle, MSSQL, MariaDB, Postgress, ect, can't detect when a file is corrupted?

Yes. cf. https://www.usenix.org/conference/atc20/presentation/rebello and https://www.usenix.org/conference/fast18/presentation/alagap...

Also read the Jepsen report on TigerBeetle (to see the new storage fault injectors that Kyle Kingsbury added): https://jepsen.io/analyses/tigerbeetle-0.16.11

> with no tangible deliverable that has a demonstrated market.

TigerBeetle is already being integrated into national payment systems. We also have a few enterprise customers. Some pretty large brokerages, wealth managements, exchanges and energy utilities. Granted, the company is only 3 years old, so we still have some market to demonstrate.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#193

Post by jorangreef »

xnzm1001 wrote: post #79

I work at a bank with old old monstrous sql queries. I thought I can make a use of tigerbeetle to simplify the system. But sadly, I just couldn't figure out how to make it work. Transaction requires lot of business logics but I couldn't convert that to make it work with combination of RDBMS + tigerbeetle. I wish there were some realworld example that I can get insight using tigerbeetle.

Appreciate that you created an anonymous account to be able to share this feedback nevertheless.

We typically hear from companies that TigerBeetle is the easier part of their stack. But to be fair, they may have a cleaner architecture.

Did you contact our solutions team for assistance with your business logic modelling? If not, please get in touch! solutions@tigerbeetle.com

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#194

Post by n_u »

dangoodmanUT wrote: post #85

I really like the work Joran and his team have done around DST, distributed systems awareness, and performance practices. I especially love the craziness around no dependencies (well, could you consider an underlying OS a dependecy?). But I've always felt the way they treat normal OLTP (they call OLGP) seems unfair. For example, comparisons using clear sub-optimal interactive SQL transactions for financial workloads,…

> comparisons using clear sub-optimal interactive SQL transactions for financial workloads, like locking rows rather than using condition checks at commit time

Could you give an example of how the same transaction could be written poorly with "locking rows" and then more optimally with "using condition checks at commit time"?

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#195

Post by stronglikedan »

cowpig wrote: post #176
itunpredictable wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few of these posts I've written coming out over the next few months that I want people to discuss. Would you prefer I add a disclaimer at the top? Easy enough to add

If you care about ethics of journalism then yes you should obviously disclose a financial interest in what you write.

If modern journalists don't care about ethics, then why should a non-journalist, or anyone for that matter?

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#196

Post by sroussey »

blenderob wrote: post #134

As nice as TigerBeetle is, do keep in mind that this article is written by an investment company that has invested in TigerBeetle: https://www.amplifypartners.com/blog-posts/our-investment-in...

My god, what do you expect?

It’s on said investment company’s website under the tag “Portfolio Spotlight”.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#197

Post by TZubiri »

swiftcoder wrote: post #117
TZubiri wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the very raison d'etre of asserts is to be a compile time/test time check. If you wanted them to run in production, you wouldn't use an assert, you would just run an if. Otherwise what's an assert to you? A mildly convenient sugar syntax alternative to if statements?

That a semantic we've all just sort of inherited from C - I don't know we're required to be bound by it forever. The word itself doesn't imply that assertions would be contextually disabled.

semantics are as if not more important than the technical execution. Bits are all abstractions anyways, what's important is the meaning we assign to them.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#198

Post by TZubiri »

vvern wrote: post #120
TZubiri wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nono, it would run decentralized in blockchain with a mircropayment rent seeking solution to update records.

You’re right that it would run on a block chain, but that fact would primarily exist to power some marketing. Everybody would end up interacting with it through a single centralized web site and API because it’s the only usable way to get it to work.

{txid:"7abde7838e8db8ba98bf8b74be77a9e787be7b8bfb7b893", gas: 0.00015, query: "A", domain: "blabla.com", actual-dns-that-will-resolve-the-query: "8.8.8.8"}

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#199

Post by MobiusHorizons »

eitland wrote: post #91
pjmlp wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was part of a project that successfully deployed them into production using Oracle, sometimes those license costs are actually worth it.

Agree. But for anyone tempted by Oracle, do remember that the upfront, agreed licence costs are only a fraction of the true price: You’ll need someone who actually knows Oracle - either already in place or willing to invest a serious amount of time learning it. Without that, you’re almost certainly better off choosing a simpler database that people are comfortable with. There’s always a non-zero risk of an Oracle rep…

Wait, are you saying that oracle lets you use features you don’t have a license for, but then threatens to sue you for using them? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised given oracle’s business model, but I am surprised they let you use the feature in the first place.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#200

Post by cowpig »

foldU wrote: post #182
cowpig wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you care about ethics of journalism then yes you should obviously disclose a financial interest in what you write.

I don't think a post on a VC blog of all places should be considered "journalism"

You're nitpicking the term "journalism" here, but even in casual conversation if a friend went on and on about how great a company was and then I later found out that they:

* Got paid a referral fee if I signed up

* Owned shares in the company

* Even was roommates with the founders/CEO but failed to mention it

I would trust that person less going forward.

If you want to be perceived as trustworthy, then you shouldn't say things that you have a hidden interest in saying.

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