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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#191

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

hosteur wrote: post #141
miladyincontrol wrote: post #7

I too have a moonlander but imo the biggest gain from most mechs isnt how they can tent but being ortholinear in nature reducing some of the more awkward directional movements of a staggered keyboard. Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many keys, a 40% is more than enough, less can be more in many ways. My datahand is probably my favorite keyboard though for reducing movement while avoiding too…

> Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many keys Can't you just program it such that you do not use the keys you find unnecessary? Perhaps even remove the switches?

Don't have a moonlander but I actually did this with my advantage 360 pro. I did not remove the switches but I made them no-ops. The whole left-most and right-most columns of the keyboard are completely unused for me.

If you travel with the keyboard a lot maybe its an issue since its extra weight/space, but if not I don't see it really hurting much.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#192

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

DanHulton wrote: post #79
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

Unfortunately I was probably what most people would think is a model person in terms of activity. I used a standing desk or sitting with no backrest to maintain upright posture - I exercised all the time, did yoga with my wife, competed in powerlifting, did plenty of walking/cardio, rucking etc. I played guitar regularly and had since I was like 12 and had bouldering as a hobby so finger strength didn't seem to be an issue.

I did physical therapy for months and the issue basically came down to my nerves being the issue. I was diagnosed with Cubital Tunnel Syndrome in both elbows and also a torn TFCC tear in one hand causing pressure on the ulnar nerve in my wrists when the wrist was flexed even a little or in what was called ulnar deviation (wrist extended outwards/away from your body). I was told the most likely cause was as simple as the way I slept - with my elbows bent and potentially exacerbated due to excessive heavy gripping combined with my bone structure in my elbow simply not being very kind on me.

I've since recovered from the elbow surgeries and they are evaluating wrist surgery as well, I still sometimes have issues with my fingers going numb in the wrong position - but trust me, I went to all kinds of doctors trying to figure this out since practically every hobby I had required using my hands/fingers. Unfortunately it just seems like I was unlucky. But having keyboards that allow my hands to be in more natural positions at the very least has allowed me to continue working.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#193

Post by iamacyborg »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #189
ziml77 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if anyone who's switched to an ergonomic setup has found that it stops working as well over time. Because I have long suspected that the real problems (in many cases) come down to weak muscles. But these ergonomic setups are likely to weaken them even more over a long enough period of time given that they try to avoid all of the strain.

Programmers are far more likely to have hyper-mobility than the general population, it makes it far more difficult / impossible to maintain good posture. If they don’t strength train they’ll end up rather weak regardless. So my general recommendation is to reduce injuries by being as ergonomic as possible while also hitting the gym. I use a reclining chair because I can’t avoid slouching no matter how ergonomic the c…

Citation needed

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#194

Post by larrry »

I have had bad cubital tunnel in the past, enough so that I was learning to become ambidextrous to stop using my left hand. A surgery helped tremendously in my case, but I’m still prone to flare ups if I overuse my pinky.

An Ergodox EZ has been a lifesaver, I’ve reprogrammed it so I don’t need to use my left pinky anything other than letter keys (goodbye left shift, you’ve pained me for too long). I fully agree with the articles advice; pair a good programmable keyboard with physical activity to keep the hands working long term.

Be warned though: the more customized your keyboard the harder it is type when using a laptop or friends keyboard.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#195

Post by sesm »

larrry wrote: post #194

I have had bad cubital tunnel in the past, enough so that I was learning to become ambidextrous to stop using my left hand. A surgery helped tremendously in my case, but I’m still prone to flare ups if I overuse my pinky. An Ergodox EZ has been a lifesaver, I’ve reprogrammed it so I don’t need to use my left pinky anything other than letter keys (goodbye left shift, you’ve pained me for too long). I fully agree with…

I'm using Ergodox for 9 years and still can touch type fluently on laptop keyboard. However, I never do heavy programming tasks on the laptop, only messaging, notes and small fixes.

I think the more customized your Ergodox layout is the easier it is for the brain to treat 2 different keyboards as 2 different input devices.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#196

Post by distances »

tom_ wrote: post #184
distances wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got a lot of exotic suggestions, I'll give one closer to normal: Perixx Periboard 535. Split (though non-adjustable), low profile mechanical switches with three options, three tilting levels, wired or wireless, with or without numpad. And has function keys. Also quite cheap. I got the wired option with tactile brown switches and numpad, and I've been happy with this. I was looking for a replacement for MS Sculpt…

Seconded. They're pretty good and I've found them a decent replacement for the MS Ergonomic 4000 keyboards that I used to use. Full size keyboard with keys in the normal places, reverse tilt, manageable F lock, and a cable to connect it to your computer. I've got one with clicky blue switches, which is fun to type on but a bit loud, and one with silent red switches, which is pleasant to use but the key activation is…

I like the stands. I need two different levels of tilt, full negative for the sitting position and the mid level for standing. It's really easy to switch between the levels so it fits well my use case.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#197

Post by [deleted] »

iamacyborg wrote: post #193
cjbgkagh wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers are far more likely to have hyper-mobility than the general population, it makes it far more difficult / impossible to maintain good posture. If they don’t strength train they’ll end up rather weak regardless. So my general recommendation is to reduce injuries by being as ergonomic as possible while also hitting the gym. I use a reclining chair because I can’t avoid slouching no matter how ergonomic the c…

Citation needed

[deleted]

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#198

Post by Twey »

mewse-hn wrote: post #87
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

I'm a mech keyboard enthusiast and an ansi 104 full size ride-or-die > (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.) The explanation I've always heard for TKL for gamers is that removing the numpad leaves mor…

That makes sense! I'm a split keyboard user and for mouse-and-keyboard style games I used to move the right half of my keyboard out of the way of the mouse.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#199

Post by oktoberpaard »

Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

I got RSI using a touchpad, which then transferred to using a normal mouse. I couldn’t do anything with a mouse for longer than a few minutes. I completely fixed it with a DXT Mouse 2 (and later 3).

My normal (mechanical) keyboard doesn’t give me any issues, as long as it’s narrow enough (75% layout or less) that I can keep my mouse close enough to the center of my body that I don’t have to rotate my shoulder outwards too much.

My natural resting position on my keyboard is with both arms coming in diagonally without bending at the wrists. I do a lot of work on the terminal, including programming, so I’m using it quite intensively and I never feel any strain.

I tried to get used to a split orthogonal keyboard, but I couldn’t use it for extended periods without getting RSI like symptoms. Would I have persisted, I might have gotten used to it. Or maybe it just wasn’t the right one for me.

Anyway, this is not to counter any of the things you said, because I basically followed the same path with my mouse, but it shows how different postures and usage patterns can lead to different outcomes. I’m still interested in ergonomic keyboards, though, and I might try one again in the future.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#200

Post by Twey »

kstrauser wrote: post #99
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

My parents sent me to years of piano lessons before I ever touched a computer keyboard, and my typing reflects it. I don't move my wrist. I move my entire hand. This drove my high school typing teacher nuts, but I was the fastest in class by a wide margin so he didn't push back too hard. I've tried traditional home-row typing but I just can't do it. And after all these years, my wrists still don't hurt at all. I can'…

Pianists are very (like 60%) susceptible to RSI, especially if they have small hands [1] (= lots of stretching motions). I think it's a tradeoff — moving your forearm around spares your wrists, but puts more strain on your elbows. I wouldn't be surprised if it's better overall, though, just because it involves a wider variety of movements.

[1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12611474/

Anecdotally, I have large hands (or at least long fingers) and early piano lessons, and as a self-taught chaos typist on QWERTY I struggled with RSI at a relatively young age until I switched to more traditional touch-typing on Dvorak.

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