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US cities pay too much for buses

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Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#191

Post by SoftTalker »

Volundr wrote: post #78
xnx wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if you're an ambitious, hard-nosed type that can really turn the screws on vendors, Absolutely not. Cost savings is career suicide in the public sector. The goal is to spend all budget and then beg for more. Regardless of ridership, the ironclad rule is "budget must go up".

It funny because having worked both in private industry and public (transit!) service, my experience is the exact opposite. In private anytime my department were coming in under budget on anything, there was always the end of the year pressure to spend it on something lest accounting take it away. Meanwhile in the public sector my team went to great lengths to get rid of vendor services that weren't providing value.

In my fantasy world where I run things as a benevolent dictator, people would get bonuses for finishing the year under budget while still achieving all their objectives. I suppose that would just incent them to inflate the budgets to begin with though.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#192

Post by Aunche »

rootusrootus wrote: post #159
dayvid wrote: post #88

Worth watching Modern MBA on the inefficiencies of transit in USA. Detailed analysis and comparison against Asian, European and Latin American systems along with private and government run operations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ3LSNXwZ2Y

Repeating the oft-cited but questionable assertion that car companies dismantled city rail systems makes me uncertain about how trustworthy the rest of their claims are. Though they did mention that the US is the most wealthy nation in the world -- did they later offer an opinion whether that would still be true had we approached public transit and health care subsidies the same way European countries did?

Modern MBA videos are like ChatGPT. They sound reasonable when he's talking about something you don't know, but you'll notice him getting basic facts wrong in topics that you're familiar with. For example, he diagnoses the growth of public storage as people from single family homes to apartments in big cities and having no place to store their things, citing that America's urbanization rate has increased. However, the increased urbanization was actually driven by the growth of suburbs and actually, home sizes actually significantly increased during that period.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#193

Post by itopaloglu83 »

citizenpaul wrote: post #170
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also don't know much about these so called purchasing contracts either. For example. do they contain sustainment services, maintenance equipment, storage facilities, or other sourcing requirements? When using federal funds, you're generally required to purchase all American products, I remember trying to furnish an office with just two desks and four chairs (nothing fancy), and the initial cost estimates were over…

All the contract stuff is too muddled to even consider debating online. I'd start with one HUGE obvious waste. Why don't the buses anywhere have some sort of uber style pickup. My point. I see countless buses running empty all the time through the day where I live outside of busy hours. It is so depressing to watch 3 empty busses pull up to an empty stop to not pick anyone up then do it again and again and again.. I…

Yes, they're empty, but it's also a catch 22 because it takes urbanization, frequent bus services, and a lot of time for people to adjust to it. Anyone who spent enough time in Europe can tell you about how efficient, convenient, and efficient a bus network can get. Also, most people go to work, so buses tend to be very busy in the morning and at shift changes etc.

It's not magic though, there are a lot of places where buses simply will not work and we need to find better ways to improve mobility. I don't have the slightest idea how, it's a generational effort.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#194

Post by rootusrootus »

bluGill wrote: post #183
rootusrootus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I remember once doing the math, and it takes a relatively high level of ridership before a bus (or train) reaches the per-passenger efficiency of something like a Civic Hybrid carrying three passengers. We have a number of routes in my local area that I think could be more quickly and economically served by replacing the full size bus with something much smaller.

general rule of thumb is 5 passangers for a but to break even. Now a civic is a smaller car so it will be better, and you specified 3 passanges whes single occupant is by far more likely - even with those unrealistic assumption a typical bus will do well overall.

I don't disagree, the typical use case isn't great for the car, this was just a thought experiment for what it would look like to use an efficient, reliable passenger car as an alternative to buses.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#195

Post by myrmidon »

paddy_m wrote: post #102
xethos wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more damning, diesel is objectively, inarguably more expensive to run, costing more than four times as much as [Vancouver's] battery-electric busses in fuel/electricity. Even looking purely at the financials, diesel is fucked.

citation needed.

Here you go: https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/financial_analys...

My takeaway: No reasonable assumption exists that would make operating battery electric busses more expensive than diesel ones.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#196

Post by infecto »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #75
infecto wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the worst takes I have ever seen. It’s not about offloading an industry but if another geography has a comparative advantage everyone benefits. I would also argue that customizations are indeed a total waste of money for systems that already cash strapped.

What geography allows for worker oppression and environmental degradation as a competitive advantage?

Where did I say anything about worker oppression?

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#197

Post by gosub100 »

GuinansEyebrows wrote: post #184
gosub100 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left serves corporations at least as much as it claims to represent the people. That is why they are blamed.

Sorry to be glib but I’m not sure you’re familiar enough with the political left to make a statement like this so confidently.

That's not refuting my claim. It's turning the claim into an ad-hominem by attacking my character. You can research who donates to Democratic candidates if you want to see evidence of my claim.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#198

Post by myrmidon »

bluGill wrote: post #171
bombcar wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost to ship a bus anywhere in the world approaches the cost of shipping a container - $2 to 10k probably. A tiny fraction of the price.

That is still a lot of money. There is only so much scale before you want a seperate factory anyway and shipping is a consideration then.

Sure, but if those $10k shipping costs get you labor at a quarter of the price, I don't think the financials ever become favorable for high-wage countries like the US (average salary in urban China is Even in much more highly automated industries you have a shift towards lower wage regions (see eastern europe automotive industry as an example) because you still need labor to build and maintain the factories at the very least.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#199

Post by wat10000 »

esafak wrote: post #93
bluGill wrote: post #63

Don't be fooled, paying less won't help much since the cost of a bus is a small part of the costs of running a bus route. about half your costs are the bus driver. The most expensive bus is still only 1/3rd of your hourly cost of running the bus. If a more expensive bus is more reliable that could more than make up for a more expensive bus (I don't have any numbers to do math on though). Half the costs of running a b…

I'm hearing you say we should have self-driving buses... which is feasible since their route is fixed.

And since the route is fixed, maybe we could install guides rather than needing a complicated steering mechanism. Then replace inefficient tires with much more efficient metal wheels rolling on the guides....

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#200

Post by pkaye »

logifail wrote: post #161

Ever since I first looked at the Oshkosh NGDV for the USPS I couldn't help but wonder WHY there was a need for a custom vehicle?* European parcel delivery firms and postal systems (Deutsche Post DHL, La Poste, Royal Mail, PostNL and all the non-legacy competitors) generally do not commission purpose-built vehicles, they buy off the shelf small vans and light commercial vehicles. * of course I do know why, "because jo…

The USPS is an US federal agency. At one time it even had a cabinet level position though not so any more. Its not private like in most countries. At the scale they buy these vehicles, it probably makes sense to get a custom one. Even Amazon has custom EVs built for them.
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