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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#191

Post by nickpsecurity »

If you have Christ, you can pray for them. God controls all random events and us. He also knows what's best for us. By praying, and if God says yes, He might provide what they need in the right way at the right time. He also sometimes gives people the better thing they didn't think to pray for. If He says no, that's also what's best due to His perfect knowledge. Finally, it builds our own inner compassion for other people.

When doing evangelism, Jesus told us to scatter seed, water, and harvest. God provides the growth. So, we can share the Gospel or truths in God's Word... His work, not our schemes... while letting them make their own decisions. Instead of manipulation, we are simply offering a gift out of love for them that they can do what they want with (or ignore). We do it while praying their choices have maximum glory to God and benefit to them, not us.

We're also commanded to display Christ-like character in our interactions with people. Paul reminds his critics "we were blameless among you" and cared like a mother nursing her child. James said to show our faith by our works, like taming the tongue or feeding a starving brother. Paul says imitate me as I imitate Christ. Our character can have a profound impact on people around us. Personally, I've been able to improve a lot just by seeing how my brothers and sisters speak and act in many situations. They've also sometimes learned from how the Holy Spirit showed me to handle specific situations.

So, these are examples of how to influence people without selfishly manipulating them. In two cases, without any manipulation of your own since one is asking the sovereign God to make the right calls and the other is just demonstrating godly behavior in a way that positively impacts them.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#192

Post by nkrisc »

sethammons wrote: post #141
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all. Silly example, but I find arguments fall apart most at the edges. I challenge you to develop a better definition of integrity. For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.

> Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all.

Then yes, he does have integrity. He has his principles and stands by them (however misguided it may seem to others). But all this illustrates is that integrity alone doesn't define a good person.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#193

Post by kipchak »

klodolph wrote: post #28
kaechle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are some bounding leaps you made without much context. Are you in sales? Kidding aside, my first reaction was: perhaps the occasions they were aware of their own influence were ones in which they didn't much care for the outcome. Or maybe a conflict of interest, like trying to win over a hiring manager for a position you know you'll hate. I don't think cajoling or persuading others inherently manipulative, but…

> I don't think cajoling or persuading others inherently manipulative, but I can think of a lot of examples where doing so feels grimy. What I am trying to do is understand why sema4hacker, and some others, feel that influencing people is manipulative. So if you pop into the conversation and say that you don’t feel the same way that sema4hacker does, that doesn’t really help me understand sema4hacker’s perspective. T…

I'm one of those people-For clarity I'm referring to influence in the active 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' sense. To me "influence" and "manipulation" seem like forms of persuasion but with positive and negative connotations, like "public relations" versus "propaganda".

None of them are necessarily bad on their own, but the choice of words seems like it depends on the perspective who is perceiving or describing the influencer/manipulator and their motives. Influence can be seen as manipulation and manipulation seen as influence.

For example someone who dislikes an "ifluencer" is probably more likely to think of them as manipulating their audience into buying products. Convincing someone to join a religious group could be seen as positive influence by current members, and manipulation by an outsider.

Clarity of purpose from the person doing the persuading is not necessarily clear as well. There is likely there's likely a mixture of factors motivating them to persuade, including some to their own benefit. People, especially those who think they are doing good, will also generally grade themselves on a bit of a curve and rationalize their actions towards being positive, especially in moral and emotional contexts.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#194

Post by lelanthran »

sethammons wrote: post #141
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all. Silly example, but I find arguments fall apart most at the edges. I challenge you to develop a better definition of integrity. For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.

> For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.

It's not as binary as that.

Each new convincing data point may cause me to re-evaluate my position, but simply re-evaluation may not cause me to change my mind, but may cause me to slightly shift in the direction of the new position.

At some point, I would have ingested and/or seen so many convincing data points that my position is effectively neutral. And some point after that, my position may have actually shifted and not be neutral anymore.

IOW, it's a spectrum, and journeys across this spectrum are:

a) Slow - position moves in tiny amounts, and

b) Not guaranteed to end up on the opposite end - you might get to neutral and remain there for the rest of your life, or you might shift back towards your original position.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#195

Post by jhanschoo »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #171
jhanschoo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken. > in war, murder is often praised; The killing of an enemy combatant, for example, is usually lawful, praised and not considered murder. Generally speaking, the killing of a civilian is sometimes a war crime and considered a murder. You also have a lot to say on the nuanced ethics of killing and on sexual violence, but these deal with the underlying concepts themselves and the words don't matter; in…

I have nothing to say on the "nuanced ethics": as far as I'm concerned, rape is bad and murder is bad. Sufficiently-advanced pedantry always circles back to that. There's no nuance to be had. If you asked any (non-bloodthirsty) soldier, officer or general whether they'd press a button to magically achieve their military objectives without bloodshed, they'd certainly take that option. Killing enemy combatants is prais…

If the legal system calls certain morally bad killings in peacetime manslaughter that does not rise to the severity of murder, then I think that murder as is commonly used is a specific kind of killing that does not include your example of a wartime killing. Even outside of the courtroom itself, many are also very careful when using the word "murder" when discussing actual killings, because of its severity, and responsible people will defer to what suspects/convicts are charged/convicted with. Rather, it is you that have chosen a redefinition of the word.

I am not responding to your discussion on the morality of killings, because your argument was primarily about the definition of the word "murder", and I wanted to point that you were not accurate either.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#196

Post by jjk166 »

yndoendo wrote: post #175
timcobb wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. I see what you're saying but I think this is called obstinance...

_I will never vote for a politician that committed an act of rape or pedophilia._ Is that part of my character Integrity or Obstinance?

Most likely neither, as you are presumably not voting for a politician who has committed rape or pedophilia because it is a legitimate, logical argument for not supporting them. Likewise I am rather firmly opposed to being thrown into a woodchipper, not because of some inflexible commitment to an ideology or ethical principle but because I have two braincells to rub together.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#197

Post by nothrabannosir »

lukan wrote: post #172
krageon wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not you believe the earth is flat is a yes or no question, but you responded with a paragraph that wasn't a real answer. This reads as defensive, which leads a reasonable person to believe that you are in fact a flat earther.

I was defensive about the accusation of never having engaged with a real flat earther, despite saying so. And this part of the debate actually reminds me of engaging with them, so I rather stop that.

If this thread is any indication of what it’s like to debate flat earthers, I absolutely never want to engage with them.

:D

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#198

Post by balamatom »

strogonoff wrote: post #167
TeMPOraL wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to look at things this way too, but I now see this picture as incomplete, missing a crucial detail. There exist another dimension to our reality, beyond the inanimate, objective one we normally study through physics and life sciences. That dimension is the social dimension. It has its own rules, and for everyone at almost all times, it's more directly relevant to survival and happiness than actual physics. An…

In a world where there is no way of knowing whether my blue is the same as your blue, can there be a way to be objectively right about the colour of the sky?

Yes. The color is exactly as you see it.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#199

Post by jjk166 »

twodave wrote: post #17
dsubburam wrote: post #9

Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

If your principles don't stand up to scrutiny, you shouldn't hold them. Some of the greatest evils ever committed were done by people certain they were acting according to upstanding principles. There is a middle ground between forcing all people to adopt your viewpoints and accepting all viewpoints as equally valid. Oftentimes you can agree to disagree, but there are certainly times you can't.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#200

Post by jjk166 »

steve1977 wrote: post #66

Every effective communication is manipulation to a degree. There is no influence without manipulation. A baby smiling at you is manipulation. This is nothing bad in itself.

To manipulate is to control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. It implies that you're getting someone to do something they wouldn't if they were aware of what was going on.
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