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GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

discuss.grapheneos.org

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Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#191

Post by strcat »

sandreas wrote: post #30
megaloblasto wrote: post #26

I've always found it strange that GrapheneOS only runs on Google hardware. Can anyone explain this choice?

AFAIK the Pixel devices are the only ones that reliably allow bootloader unlocking / re-locking, that is required to perform custom os installs. There are others e.g. Motorola ones or Fairphone, that also allow this but it's a good idea to focus on a specific set of devices keeping maintenance as low as possible and security focus as high as possible. There are alternatives like /eOS/ or CalyxOS supporting more devic…

Pixels are the most secure Android devices and the only ones meeting the hardware security requirements for GrapheneOS at this time. GrapheneOS is working with a major Android OEM towards their future devices meeting these requirements.

Neither /e/ or CalyxOS is a hardened OS. They provide much weaker protection against these attacks than the stock Pixel OS or especially an iPhone. They're weakening privacy and security substantially including lagging many months and even years behind on standard security patches. CalyxOS has not shipped the June 2025-06-05 patch level or later. /e/ is regularly many months behind on OS and browser security patches along with very often being a year or more behind on kernel updates and firmware/driver updates.

See https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand... with in-depth information about /e/ on Fairphone devices with links to multiple articles from third party security researchers covering it and other information.

Those non--Pixel devices do not provide a secure base either.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#192

Post by strcat »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #128
subscribed wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll bite - what phone GOS should run on? Remember the context is having a *secure* handset in hand.

He's not wrong from a computer freedom perspective. GrapheneOS is actively hostile to things like complete root access. It blows a hole in the security model. It's also very much enabled by the exact same sort of user hostile cryptography that corporations use to lock down their devices. Things like hardware attestation which protects apps from us. We can't easily do things like MITM an app to reverse engineer it. I…

GrapheneOS only supports devices where users can have full control over the OS and replace it. Choosing to use GrapheneOS is fully optional and people who don't want a strong security model can use something else. Not clear how GrapheneOS in any way hurts people's freedom by giving them a highly private and secure OS option for devices which meet our requirements. We're working with an OEM on towards more devices meeting our requirements which will support using other operating systems too. If you want another OS, you can use one. If you want to modify GrapheneOS in any way you want, that's fully supported. We provide easy to follow build instructions. You can make a userdebug build with ro.adb.secure=1 if you want root access at the cost of security.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#193

Post by strcat »

sterlind wrote: post #163
buckle8017 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user has real dom0 root on qubes.

Is Qubes resistant to forensics? I think its selling point is multi-level security and lateral movement prevention, not safeguarding data on a stolen laptop.

No, it's not resistant to forensics unless it's turned off when obtained. The hardware / firmware / software makes no serious attempt to protect a device in the After First Unlock state.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#194

Post by sterlind »

lc5G wrote: post #181
sterlind wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can enable root on GrapheneOS. It will erase your data, however, so make a backup before you do. But if you really want root you can save your data, root, restore, and leave root on.

How can I enable root?

sorry, I was mistaken. it looks like you'll have to build a userdebug build in order to gain root.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#195

Post by fsflover »

strcat wrote: post #192
matheusmoreira wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not wrong from a computer freedom perspective. GrapheneOS is actively hostile to things like complete root access. It blows a hole in the security model. It's also very much enabled by the exact same sort of user hostile cryptography that corporations use to lock down their devices. Things like hardware attestation which protects apps from us. We can't easily do things like MITM an app to reverse engineer it. I…

GrapheneOS only supports devices where users can have full control over the OS and replace it. Choosing to use GrapheneOS is fully optional and people who don't want a strong security model can use something else. Not clear how GrapheneOS in any way hurts people's freedom by giving them a highly private and secure OS option for devices which meet our requirements. We're working with an OEM on towards more devices mee…

> people who don't want a strong security model can use something else

You have a very special threat model, which you for some reason always call the best or the only one reasonable. In reality, depending on the user's threat model, your approach can fail miserably. For example, if my threat model includes that Google can utilize their control over the hardware to undermine my security, then your approach fails [0]. And this is a real-world example.

Don't get me wrong, I still agree that your approach is very secure, it should exist, and you're doing an amazing job for the Community. Just that you shouldn't behave as it's the only viable one.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208925

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#196

Post by n4r9 »

npoc wrote: post #117
b112 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. The Earth used to be a boiling lump of magma at once point before it cooled, but guess what -- humans can't live on liquid rock. Warmest or coolest is irrelevant over the lifetime of the Earth. What matters is "modern humans". Global warming is indeed real. Effective change doesn't have to cost a dime. An example is forcing people to buy electric cars at some point. The government spends nothing, people jus…

To clarify I meant over the last 5 million years. There has been no man-made climate change during the period of "modern humans" either. It's not a conspiracy as such - it helps to think of government and corporations as an AI. A hive intelligence with constraints and goals. The constraint is to operate within legislation and keep the people on board, the reward/goal is to acquire money/power. At this stage the finan…

Manmade climate change is in the context of the last two millenia. The issue is not just the absolute temperature but the rate of change and human survivability. Homo sapiens only evolved ~200k years ago.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#197

Post by npoc »

n4r9 wrote: post #184
npoc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why's that? A topic as big as this takes quite a lot of refuting. If you're interested in finding the truth, then you'll at least begin watching it to see if it offers any promise.

Videos are a terrible way to convey logical arguments. It's much harder to skip back and forth, search for specific bits, etc ... . They're for entertainment, which encourages a suspension of critical thinking. If you're confident there's a solid argument to be made, make it in text so it can easily be analysed and challenged.

I disagree completely. Videos allow you to time-stamp exact moments for reference and provide animated evidence, rather than just stills. Some videos are meant for entertainment, others are not. Same goes for books and other text-based media. Life itself is presented to our brains in a dynamic audio-visual format - does that encourage the suspension of critical thinking, or does it provide more nuance not available in just words and static pictures?

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#198

Post by npoc »

n4r9 wrote: post #187
n4r9 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Videos are a terrible way to convey logical arguments. It's much harder to skip back and forth, search for specific bits, etc ... . They're for entertainment, which encourages a suspension of critical thinking. If you're confident there's a solid argument to be made, make it in text so it can easily be analysed and challenged.

I watched the first ten minutes. It's the standard boring exercise of cherry picking a few theoretical physicists who weigh in on climate science despite having little to no experience in it.

Well, I'm afraid that that only goes to prove errors in your intuition and critical thinking skills. Your facts are incorrect and your logic uses an appeal to (lack of) authority fallacy.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#199

Post by n4r9 »

npoc wrote: post #197
n4r9 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Videos are a terrible way to convey logical arguments. It's much harder to skip back and forth, search for specific bits, etc ... . They're for entertainment, which encourages a suspension of critical thinking. If you're confident there's a solid argument to be made, make it in text so it can easily be analysed and challenged.

I disagree completely. Videos allow you to time-stamp exact moments for reference and provide animated evidence, rather than just stills. Some videos are meant for entertainment, others are not. Same goes for books and other text-based media. Life itself is presented to our brains in a dynamic audio-visual format - does that encourage the suspension of critical thinking, or does it provide more nuance not available i…

> Videos allow you to ... provide animated evidence.

If you want to do that, far better to embed animations in a mostly-textual doc.

> Life itself is presented to our brains in a dynamic audio-visual format ... does that encourage the suspension of critical thinking?

Yes, to an extent. Or at least text allows critical thinking more easily than the average conversation does. Text makes it really easy to pause and think for a moment before reading on. Or to check back on something you vaguely remember reading beforehand. It's a more active form of ingest than watching a video. Video-makers have many more techniques at their disposal to slip their narrative past critical filters, such as varying the speed of delivery, or using music to invoke emotional reactions.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#200

Post by n4r9 »

npoc wrote: post #198
n4r9 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the first ten minutes. It's the standard boring exercise of cherry picking a few theoretical physicists who weigh in on climate science despite having little to no experience in it.

Well, I'm afraid that that only goes to prove errors in your intuition and critical thinking skills. Your facts are incorrect and your logic uses an appeal to (lack of) authority fallacy.

The ten minutes I watched was one big appeal to authority. "Here's Doctor X, a highly respected scientist. Look at all the big name universities he's linked to. Listen to him waffle on about how he thinks climate science is corrupt."

Appeal to authority is a dubious fallacy to invoke in the first place. If I need to assume something about (let's say) geology - which I know little about and haven't the time to research myself - I'm going to trust the general consensus of professional geologists. I'm not going to waste my time listening to a marine biologist who sounds like a crank and claims they've discovered that the whole field is bogus.

"If you're interested in finding the truth, you'll at least" check out this (surprise surprise, textual) take-down of the movie, with a comprehensive set of links debunking (in, surprise surprise, text form) the hackneyed climate myths that it brings up: https://skepticalscience.com/climate-the-movie-a-hot-mess-of...

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