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Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

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191–200 of 498 posts

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#191

These claims wouldn't matter if the topic weren't so deadly serious. Tech leaders everywhere are buying into the FOMO, convinced their competitors are getting massive gains they're missing out on. This drives them to rebrand as AI-First companies, justify layoffs with newfound productivity narratives, and lowball developer salaries under the assumption that AI has fundamentally changed the value equation. This is my…

> My manager told me that the time to deliver my latest project was cut to 20% of the original estimate That's insane. Who the hell pulls a number out of their ass and declares it the new reality? When it doesn't happen, he'll pin the blame on you, but everyone else above will pin the blame on him . He's the one who will get fired. Laying off unnecessary developers is the answer if LLMs turn out to make us all so muc…

> That's insane. Who the hell pulls a number out of their ass and declares it the new reality?

Chatgpt.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#192
I agree quite strongly with this article. I've used AI for some thing,s but when it comes to productivity I don't use it in big codebases I contribute to or code which I want to put into production. I've mainly only used it to build little concept demos/prototypes, and even then I build on top of a framework I wrote by hand like last year or so. And I only use AI to get familiar enough with the general patterns for a library I'm not familiar with (mainly because I'd like to avoid diving into tests to learn how the library works). But even then, I always have the docs open, and API docs, and I very carefully review and thoroughly test on my own system and with what I'm really trying to do before I even consider it something I'd give to others. Even so, I wouldn't say I've gotten a productivity increase, because (1) I don't measure or really care about productivity with these kinds of things, and (2) I'm the one who already knows what I want to accomplish, and just need a bit of help trying to work towards that goal.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#193
It's the cost. Full time serious agentic coding costs upwards of $100/day in Claude tokens (and Claude tokens are the only tokens worth even talking about). When this drops by 10x for a model at the level of quality and speed of Sonnet 4, it will change everything.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#194
This argument is predicated on what might become an outdated idea of software as an asset. If I can quickly generate software from natural language to solve a very specific problem, that software isn't worth maintaining, let alone publishing or selling. Its value to people who aren't me is low, and its defensibility against being copied by someone else with an adequate coding agent is even lower.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#195
Faster? At making what? Pipe dev/null and you'll get a lot of stuff fast.

What if someone came out with a study saying they had a tool to make the fastest doctors and lawyers? You'd say that doesn't even make sense, what kinds of doctors doing what kinds of work?

AI coding isn't some across the board, helps everyone do anything kind of tool.

Maybe sometime soon we'll stop strawmanning this.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#197
Maybe developers are using it in a less visible way? In the past 6 months I've used AI for a lot of different things. Some highlights:

- Built a windows desktop app that scans local folders for videos and automatically transcribes the audio, summarises the content into a structured JSON format based on screenshots and subtitles, and automatically categorises each video. I used it on my PC to scan a couple of TB of videos. Has a relatively nice interface for browsing videos and searching and stores everything locally in SQLite. Did this in C# & Avalonia - which I've never used before. AI wrote about 75% of the code (about 28k LOC now).

- Built a custom throw-away migration tool to export a customers data from one CRM to import into another. Windows app with basic interface.

- Developed an AI process for updating a webform system that uses XML to update the form structure. This one felt like magic and I initially didn't think it would work, but it only took a minute to try. Some background - years ago I built a custom webform/checklist app for a customer. They update the forms very rarely so we never built an interface for making updates but we did write 2 stored procs to update forms - one outputs the current form as XML and another takes the same XML and runs updates across multiple tables to create a new version of the form. For changes, the customer sends me a spreadsheet with all the current form questions in one column and their changes in another. It's normally just wording changes so I go through and manually update the XML and import it, but this time they had a lot of changes - removing questions, adding new ones, combining others. They had a column with the label changes and another with a description of what they wanted (i.e. "New Question", "Update label", "Combine this with q1, q2 and q3", "remove this question"). The form has about 100 questions and the XML file is about 2500 lines long and defines each form field, section layout, conditional logic, grid display, task creation based on incorrect answers etc, so it's time consuming to make a lot of little changes like this. With no expectation of it working, I took a screenshot of the spreadsheet and the exported XML file and prompted the LLM to modify the XML based on the instructions in the spreadsheet and some basic guidelines. It did it close to perfect, even fixing the spelling mistakes the customer had missed while writing their new questions.

- Along with using it on a daily basis across multiple projects.

I've seen the stat that says developers "...thought AI was making them 20% faster, but it was actually making them 19% slower". Maybe I'm hoodwinking myself somehow, but it's been transformative for me in multiple ways.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#198
I used to be a full-time developer back in the day. Then I was a manager. Then I was a CTO. I stopped doing the day-to-day development and even stopped micro-managing the detailed design.

When I tried to code again, I found I didn't really have the patience for it -- having to learn new frameworks, APIs, languages, tricky little details, I used to find it engrossing: it had become annoying.

But with tools like Claude Code and my knowledge about how software should be designed and how things should work, I am able to develop big systems again.

I'm not 20% more productive than I was. I'm not 10x more productive than I was either. I'm infinity times more productive because I wouldn't be doing it at all otherwise, realistically: I'd either hire someone to do it, or not do it, if it wasn't important enough to go through the trouble to hire someone.

Sure, if you are a great developer and spend all day coding and love it, these tools may just be a hindrance. But if you otherwise wouldn't do it at all they are the opposite of that.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " These companies' revenues aren't emerging from nothing. People aren't paying them billions unless there is value in the product. " Oh, of course not. Just like people weren't paying vast sums of money for beanie babies and dotcoms in the late 1990s and mortgage CDOs in the late 2000s [EDIT] unless there was value in the product.

Those are fundamentally different. If people on this site really can't tell the difference then it makes sense why people on HN assume AI is a bubble. People paid a lot for beanie babies and various speculative securities on the assumption that they could be sold for more in the future. They were assets people aimed to resell at a profit. They had no value by themselves. The source of revenue for AI companies has inh…

The central issue here is whether the money pouring into AI companies is producing anything other than more AI companies.

I think the article's premise is basically correct - if we had a 10x explosion of productivity where is the evidence? I would think some is potentially hidden in corporate / internal apps but despite everyone at my current employer using these tools we don't seem to be going any faster.

I will admit that my initial thoughts on Copilot were that "yes this is faster" but that was back when I was only using it for rote / boilerplate work. I've not had a lot of success trying to get it to do higher level work and that's also the experience of my co-workers.

I can certainly see why a particular subset of programmers find the tools particularly compelling, if their job was producing boilerplate then AI is perfect.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#200
post #198

I used to be a full-time developer back in the day. Then I was a manager. Then I was a CTO. I stopped doing the day-to-day development and even stopped micro-managing the detailed design. When I tried to code again, I found I didn't really have the patience for it -- having to learn new frameworks, APIs, languages, tricky little details, I used to find it engrossing: it had become annoying. But with tools like Claude…

my grand theory on AI coding tools is that they don't really save on time, but they massively save on annoyance. I can save my frustration budget for useful things instead of fiddling with syntax or compiler messages or repetitive tasks, and oftentimes this means I'll take on a task I would find too frustrating in an already frustrating world, or stay at my desk longer before needing to take a walk or ditch the office for the bar.
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