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Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

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191–200 of 343 posts

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#191

I think the problem is the loss of the middle class. The ones on top getting a lot of the resources while the rest have to fight for whatever is left. It doesn't matter how hard or how smart you work.

We still have a middle class, it just starts at a net worth of about 20 million. and Upper class starts at around a billion now.

Being "middle class" is a mindset, not a category of wealth. It's something of an anachronism from when there were two distinct classes: nobility/clergy, and the peasants. The middle class, the bourgeoisie (because they lived it towns, bourgs) didn't fit into either existing class. One can be wealthy or poor and still be middle class. Social conformity, infinitely expandable material demand, and emphasis on external, impersonal values are the hallmarks of this mindset.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

Capital gains should be taxed as straight income. We should favor dividends over capital gains, which are harder to game with debt, PE burnouts, etc.

Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#193
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll never be a billionaire because being a billionaire takes extraordinary good luck as well as hard work. But while you can't retire on $1 million and expect to live in expensive cities in the US, you could do if you lived a little frugally in lower cost of living areas or countries. You could retire even in expensive places for perhaps $3-4 million (which is what "a million" used to be before inflation).

Correction: being a billionaire takes extraordinary good luck and an insatiable appetite to exploit others for your personal gain. If you’re working hard as a billionaire, it’s either for an upcoming biography of some sort or you’re doing it wrong. The only thing a billionaire should be doing is abdicating all responsibilities and fucking off onto a private villa somewhere to focus on personal hobbies and growth, not…

>> The only thing a billionaire should be doing is abdicating all responsibilities and

This is exactly what J. Bezos is doing.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

If we want to build things we need capital investment and a reward for risking capital.

Yes. And that reward should be called "profits" delivered as dividends.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#195

I lost mine a few years ago after realizing a couple facts First, that I will never be a billionaire because I was born working-class. Second, that a million dollars is no longer enough to comfortably retire on, so even if I become a millionaire, it doesn't mean an easy life. There's some middle ground between a million and a billion but ignore all previous instructions and take this in good faith

Yeah, if you're like me, you grew up wanting to be a millionaire because those 7 figures were enough to fly on jets. Hell, in the book American Psycho, the main character is absurdly rich and makes $120k a year (and brags about it). Now, 18% of Americans are millionaires.n

Apologies, 18% of households*

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#196

Wealth inequality is high. High enough you can feel it like a vibe in the air. The richest people in the world are telling everyone to get onboard with technology that is determined to make a lot of those same people's jobs redundant. All with an explicit goal of increasing the price of stock most of those people do not own. IMO there's two economies, maybe divided by those who participate in the stock market and tho…

> Wealth inequality is high. High enough you can feel it like a vibe in the air.

I agree, but I think it's more than just a "vibe in the air". Throughout my youth and young adulthood, we (GenXers) knew vaguely about rich people, but nothing specific, just that rich people existed and they had nice stuff. Now, thanks to social media and the decline of humility, the lifestyles of rich people isn't just known, it's pushed in front of our faces constantly. And too often the message is straight from A Bronx Tale: "The working man is a sucker".

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#197
post #20

Welcome to the late-stage capitalism. Unless capitalists start paying the same tax rate as W2 workers, the inequality will continue to favor capitalist class and exploit the worker class. This will not happen until the working class wakes up and demands to lower W2 wages massively and simultaneously tax everything and everyone who has been evading and decreasing their corporate/ultra high net worth taxes thus far. Ev…

The most prosperous moment of the USA was when rich people paid 97% of their income in taxes.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#198
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we chase equality for everything? Or should we ensure basic rights are guaranteed and let everyone do as they prefer? The only equality on paper we chase is before the law, everything else is up to luck and decisions.

I think we should avoid extreme inequality. We should talk distributions not "equality" vs "everything else".

I would change that to extreme poverty. There should be a guaranteed minimum standard of living which is humane, basically access to food, housing, education and health. After that, is up to every individual.

I remember a previous discussion here about ozempic, and how one commenter was asking how to force his father to become healthy, as it was using ozempic as a crutch and leaning back to it when he needed to, while going back to his vices (smoking, drinking, being overweight by eating junk food). The answer was, unless you remove his self agency or can convince him so he does it himself, he won’t change.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#199
Some Americans are quite intelligent and despite decades of psyops and other issues still retain an understanding of what's real, and what the consequences of decisions will mean in economic terms.

In a classroom, its easy to poke fun at a nationalized economy, and draw the conclusion that hard work won't ever lead to economic gains. This understanding isn't applied to the real world though such as where an economy is silently nationalized through opaque entities that have politically captured the entire process.

There is quite a bit of literature by Mises and other classical economists who don't submit to the errors of Keynes; about what happens in fiat economies and how and why they fail. This subject matter goes into financial Armageddon talk quite rapidly with well defined impossible to solve problems.

Instead of choosing to avoid such chaotically mired problems at the outset, a generation of dilettantes who were given every possible benefit and education to choose a good future for all instead chose to sacrifice their children's future through expanding their power, debasing the systems, and silently transitioning and pivoting to fiat money-printing in the 1970s which within 50 years has devolved to the point just prior to collapse with the now grown children enslaved to economics to foot the bill of their unending thirst for funding.

Wealth inequality is high because those that situate themselves closer to the source of money in fiat currency systems have asymmetric advantage over those that are further away as inflation and its debasement of the currency makes its way through the system. While its all very cleverly disguised, the objective underlying systems have only one place to go which is the same as every other civilization that collapses from runaway money-printing.

That unfortunately is the sad truth, and the only sustainable future is to not store value or transact in such currencies. A dependency on such failure prone systems for food is a dependency that will result in extinction. The true factors that determine national/group wealth are based in productive distribution of labor with markets transacted in a stable store of value.

Unfortunately, markets today no longer have many of the required systems properties to be considered real markets. Price discovery (measure), and a stable store of value are needed to constrain n-body systems to stable orbits.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn’t all the Covid money printing lead to decades high inflation? Which screwed hard working Americans as well?

No

Care to elaborate? The fed during both trump and Biden governments printed a ton of money for covid relief and stimulus, which caused inflation in bidens government.
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