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Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

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Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#191
post #177
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLM roles are a trap, but not in that sense. There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once. It's just a way to ease unsuspecting engineers into management. If you don't suck at management, your team inevitably grows (or you're handed over other teams), and before long, you're managing full-time. Which means that there are three type of people who remain TLMs in the long haul: those who suck at management; those…

> There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once. I laughed out loud when I read this. I've never seen anyone at any company in a hybrid tech/manager role that wasn't expected to do two jobs at once. Or at least they felt like they were, which is still the same problem. 80% coding & 80% management for that role sounds about right.

80 / 80 is sure close to reality.

As alternative explanation, even if there's no pressure to do so, the thing is these people came to do dev, and probably enjoyed their job enough to get recognized for their work.

So when asked to split between dev and management, outside of a few exceptions they'll want to do 80% of tech by choice. But the management part doesn't go away of course, so it will still be at least 50% (and 80% if they want money, because that's the part they're actually evaluated on)

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#192
post #175
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GOOG has made a systemic push to eliminate the role starting ~3 years ago. At that time my M was a staff level IC TLM with 4 reports who was forcibly converted to EM. In those last 3 years I've only seen TLMs used to assist an overloaded EM. The pattern I've seen is something like: Principal EM |- Staff EM (7 reports, project A) |- Staff EM (8 reports, project B) |- Staff IC (projects A, B, C) |- Senior IC (projects…

Wait, so you have ICs who work on multiple projects, and report to a different manager depending on the project? That sounds like a nightmare. Having one manager to manage is usually enough work...

It’s generally just fine if they all boil up to the same manager and that manager has a direct line to that IC.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#193
Small team management is dead. Long live small team management. Yes. You fire them then your senior engineers fill that gap. Its just not formally part of the process. The cost didnt disappear. Either borne by employees working longer hours or lost velocity.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#194

First they laid off the non-technical employees. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on coding. But that wasn't enough, so they laid off the middle managers in charge of coders. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on coding. But that wasn't enough, so they laid off the low-level managers who were the domain experts on each product. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on pure coding, and any…

Kudos for getting that fat without mentioning AI

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#195
post #82

This was called the TLM role at google. Technical Lead/Manager. You were expected to code and manage a couple of more junior engineers. It’s part of an effort to have dedicated managers and dedicated engineers instead of hybrid roles. This is being sold as an efficiency win for the sake of the stock price but it’s really just moved a few people around with the TLMs now 100% focused on programming.

GOOG has made a systemic push to eliminate the role starting ~3 years ago. At that time my M was a staff level IC TLM with 4 reports who was forcibly converted to EM. In those last 3 years I've only seen TLMs used to assist an overloaded EM. The pattern I've seen is something like: Principal EM |- Staff EM (7 reports, project A) |- Staff EM (8 reports, project B) |- Staff IC (projects A, B, C) |- Senior IC (projects…

Everytime I see such charts and explanations it helps me understand how Musk could fire 80% of Twitter with no visible effect on product.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#196
post #153

It goes in cycles. I remember the last time G did this (2006?) they had the 7 rule: No manager with more then 7 reports No IC with more then 7 managers between them and CEO

They shpule make it 16 reports and 8 between them and ceo. Then they can use IP addresses for staff.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#197

I currently am an "individual contributor" on a very large (15+) "game team". It is hilariously inefficient to have one manager supporting that many people, as the manager just makes decisions based on heuristics and buzz words. They almost always make the wrong decision, and we just silently ignore those decisions. Since they're so busy, they don't notice. I have advocated many times and been told no for a situation…

Managers of 15 shouldn't make lots of decisions. The team should come together and use decision processes to make good decisions. Manager makes sure individuals are growing and are able to contribute at that level.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#198
post #197

I currently am an "individual contributor" on a very large (15+) "game team". It is hilariously inefficient to have one manager supporting that many people, as the manager just makes decisions based on heuristics and buzz words. They almost always make the wrong decision, and we just silently ignore those decisions. Since they're so busy, they don't notice. I have advocated many times and been told no for a situation…

Managers of 15 shouldn't make lots of decisions. The team should come together and use decision processes to make good decisions. Manager makes sure individuals are growing and are able to contribute at that level.

I agree with you. Based on what others have said about this article, it sounds like Google doesn't agree with us.

If anything, I would go further than the "two pizza" team sizing. Teams should be no larger than 4 people, one of whom is a lead who is extremely well compensated and is held to extremely high standards, else they are shitcanned ASAP.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Role power is by far the least effective. To be frank: it sounds nice, but I don't think that's really true. It's the power of "who's going to decide my promotions", "who is going to advocate for my team and get us more resources", "who approves my expenses", "who is going to protect me if something goes wrong", etc. This doesn't give the manager a pass if their ideas are objectionable, but if they're credible, it'…

> Being very visibly anointed by some VP helps, but that's essentially tapping into the exec's leverage - an illusion of IC influence. Of course that’s the play. Even a lind manager can’t get major initiatives through without getting the buy in from their manager. When I was working for startups, the director (1st company I had influence at) and the CTO at the second had been convinced of my idea and gave me the auth…

> the CTO at the second had been convinced of my idea and gave me the authority to pull who I needed to get it done.

But that mean those people have the power, not you. Without that formal power structure you wouldn't do so much work trying to convince these people, the formal power structure forces everyone to try to manipulate and work with it, even you.

So it makes it so much easier to do anything if you are that high up person, imagine that was you, now instead of having to convince these people to do it now you just do it.

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