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Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

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Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#191

Post by nobody9999 »

duxup wrote: post #167
whatsupdog wrote: post #4

Unpopular opinion: Paper ballots with in person voting (with an ID) is the only 100% fool proof and verifiable voting system. Everything else could be manipulated or hacked. And when there's trillions of dollars and world power on the line, it's just a matter of time when the "could be" turns to "would be".

In Minnesota we have paper ballots, we run them through an optical scanner straight into a lockbox attached to the scanner. The scanner counts the votes, but there's a paper copy and they can audit the machine and ballot 1:1. In theory you could just run it through the exact machine again and you'd get a good test for what is going on, and you have a physical copy to count / verify. I think it is a good system, and a…

>In Minnesota we have paper ballots, we run them through an optical scanner straight into a lockbox attached to the scanner. The scanner counts the votes, but there's a paper copy and they can audit the machine and ballot 1:1.

That's exactly how we do it in New York as well.

What's more, before I'm given that paper ballot, I need to provide my name and address, then provide a signature which is compared to the signature on file with the Board of Elections. If the signature doesn't match, I don't get to vote.

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#192

Post by baggy_trough »

bediger4000 wrote: post #166
baggy_trough wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to know who actually filled it out, for example.

That's true in any Australian ballot system - there' no link from ballot to human voter, and that's for a reason.

I support that which is why I oppose mail in ballots.

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#193

Post by nobody9999 »

jltsiren wrote: post #81
Volundr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unpopular opinion: Paper ballots with in person voting (with an ID) is the only 100% fool proof and verifiable voting system. I don't know that it's that unpopular. I disagree with the 100% fool proof and verifiable claim though. I can think of lots of interesting ways of screwing with it, e.x. manipulating the chain of custody or tampering with the ballots to make errors likely. Everything is a balance. Paper ball…

> I happen to think the pros aren't worth the cons and that most of the handwringing around mail in ballots and machines are FUD rather than measured concerns. You can't trust the machines. You can't trust the election authorities. You can't trust the post office. Those are fundamental assumptions, not FUD or measured concerns. Elections should be designed for bad situations, because the results don't matter that muc…

>The goal is not 100% security, 100% correctness, or something equally silly. The goal is a system where either every major party has a justified belief that the elections were legitimate and fair, the reported results are mostly correct, and there was no substantial fraud. Or at least one party questions the results due to widespread fraud. You want to trust the results, even when you can't trust the people running the elections.

Right. Which is why in all 3500+ elections (and yes, every county has a separate election, with separate ballots, separate rules and separate groups of folks managing the elections. In fact, it's your neighbors who manage and staff the elections in your county) every election day, there are generally representatives from each candidate and party involved in each race, from city council member, animal control officer, coroner, mayor, congressperson, etc., etc., etc. at each polling place and counting center (where different) who are there to make sure their candidate is not shortchanged.

This happens everywhere, ever time and is nothing new. IF there are claimed "irregularities," recounts are performed and lawsuits filed and adjudicated.

But don't believe me. Go ahead and work at the polls. They hire and train folks to work at polling places during the elections. See for yourself. Or is that too much work and you'd rather rely on someone else (you trust them, but not anyone else?) to tell you what goes on at the polls?

Please.

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#194

Post by ModernMech »

whatsupdog wrote: post #4

Unpopular opinion: Paper ballots with in person voting (with an ID) is the only 100% fool proof and verifiable voting system. Everything else could be manipulated or hacked. And when there's trillions of dollars and world power on the line, it's just a matter of time when the "could be" turns to "would be".

Why is anyone talking about voting methods when the President can call up a state and ask them to gerrymander 5 congressional seats? What's the fucking point in caring about the integrity of various voting mechanisms if they can just fix the outcome anyway? You don't need to scam the voting box, just win a majority in the legislature and then prevent the other side from ever winning again. Sidesteps the whole voting ID issue very cleanly.

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#195

Post by nobody9999 »

jeltz wrote: post #51
bediger4000 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human marked, human and machine readable both is good practice. Risk limiting audits after elections is good practice. CA, WA and CO at least do all this. What does in person (with an ID) add to election security? That practice most certainly restricts voting unless there's a holiday for election day. What keeps in person voting from being manipulated less than other good practice elections? Why did in person voting…

In person voting on election day makes replacing people's votes much harder. You only need to compromise a handful of people who guard the ballots othewise. The ratio of votes per staff guarding is much lower on election day in at least my country. Compromising enough people on election day would be ridiculous in my country.

>Compromising enough people on election day would be ridiculous in my country.

Given that there are >3500 elections (one for each county) in the US every cycle, and all the competing eyes on the polls, counts and storage of ballots in each of those 3500+ counties makes compromising enough people to affect an election incredibly unlikely.

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#196

Post by dragonwriter »

jeltz wrote: post #76
CharlesW wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual argument by anyone who cares about voting rights concerns structural barriers to obtaining ID (hint: doesn't include stupidity). India's Aadhaar ID system, which still struggles with duplicate and missing voter records, doesn't magically solve any of the problems you mention. > Not "let's have just anyone vote and we'll trust their word". That's not how it works here. Voter registration requires proof of e…

> Voter registration requires proof of eligibility, poll books, signatures, and address checks are used for verification. And how is that less of a barrier than requiring an ID? Just fix so that it is easy to get an ID like most other countries have.

> And how is that less of a barrier than requiring an ID? Just fix so that it is easy to get an ID like most other countries have.

Great, do that, first, and once that is in place in a manner that is secure for the future, we can talk about whether it makes sense to condition the franchise on it.

Of course, the people that are most for Voter ID are also opposed to that (in fact, in some cases, they have simultaneously adopted voter ID rules and made it harder to get IDs, specifically targeting minor areas for the latter effect.)

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#197

Post by nobody9999 »

baggy_trough wrote: post #71
alistairSH wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have anything beyond a gut feeling here? Several states do primarily mail-in voting and it seems to work fine.

How would you know if it didn’t? The very nature of the problem means that it’s hidden!

>How would you know if it didn’t? The very nature of the problem means that it’s hidden!

Even if it's at a polling place on the day of, it's still a secret ballot. As such, of course it's hidden. It's a secret ballot. What are you going on about?

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#198

Post by baggy_trough »

nobody9999 wrote: post #197
baggy_trough wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know if it didn’t? The very nature of the problem means that it’s hidden!

>How would you know if it didn’t? The very nature of the problem means that it’s hidden! Even if it's at a polling place on the day of, it's still a secret ballot. As such, of course it's hidden. It's a secret ballot. What are you going on about?

Absolutely, which is why I oppose mail in ballots. They don't have that property!

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#199

Post by nobody9999 »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #32
kg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we really want to increase turnout, we can just make voting mandatory like other countries have. Requiring ID is a problem given that a lot of people don't have easy access (or access at all) to legal ID, for various reasons, some as simple as cost. Having a license costs money on an ongoing basis and you need to have access to documents to prove your identity like a birth certificate, and some citizens don't have…

I feel that forcing people to vote is more authoritarian than democratic. Places like North Korea have something like 99.5% turnouts for elections. One of the advantages of living in a democratic society is the freedom to choose not to participate in it, so long as this doesn't affect others. The idea just rubs me the wrong way. I understand America is somewhat unusual among most Western nations that lots of people d…

>As a Brit the idea of an ID card also feels undemocratic to me. In the UK we have inexpensive passports and a national voter registration database, with signatures and adresses recorded, why would that not work in the US?

In the US, we also have county (and state) voter registration databases with signatures and addresses recorded. And they do work in the US. The only real difference is that those practices are determined at the county and state levels and not at the national level. That's not a bug. In fact, it's required by our Constitution.

That some places abuse that really sucks. For me at least, that doesn't happen where I live.

Re: Newsmax agrees to pay $67M in defamation case over bogus 2020 election claims

#200

Post by mandeepj »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #178
senderista wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to pleasing the base, or the voters, Democrats always choose the former. At least they can feel good about losing.

I see so much hate for James Carville but he was right. Grocery prices affect more people than abortions so why the hell did Dems run on abortions?!

The other candidate went on stage and said - he’d lower the grocery prices on day 1, and then declares off-stage: once prices go up, they never come down . He told Palestinian-Americans in Michigan - he’d bring peace in Palestine. People were so desperate to hear what they wanted to hear - whether lower prices or peace back home. He sold lies to everyone; I don’t see Democrats doing that. Ironically, prices are comparatively high now and going to get even higher. You know the statements coming from Israel.

I wish there was a way to challenge - these corrupt and lying politicians - in court. Unfortunately, currently, Supreme Court is compromised as well.

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