New executive order puts all grants under political control • Hacker News Board

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#191

Post by exasperaited » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 1:18 AM UTC

qcnguy wrote: post #187

BrenBarn wrote: post #107

If an executive order can put grants under political control, they were already under political control. We just didn't know it. That is the case with so much of what is happening now. If these things are possible, the system was already broken.

If it's government funded it was indeed always under political control, just that some prior politicians chose to let it drift. Having politicians exercise more direct control over this type of spending is good and as it should be. The concept of people taking money via force from other citizens yet answering to nobody is dystopian. The sort of people who support this idea are often, it seems, those who suspect their…

> If it's government funded it was indeed always under political control, just that some prior politicians chose to let it drift.

Right, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is under executive control? Is it not the case that Congress usually decides, one way or another, where the money goes, and it's the executive's job to see it does?

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#192

Post by exasperaited » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 1:28 AM UTC

jaybrendansmith wrote: post #157

How would any of his actions, if looked at objectively, differ from the actions of one who was charged with the complete destruction of the United States of America.

He doesn't want to destroy the USA. Well not quite.

He does want to fundamentally change it into an domestic empire -- a monarchical executive ruling over vassal states that have their own governments but must pay tribute.

Well... he wants it to look more like a mafia arrangement because he was jealous of those guys back when he had a mafia lawyer in the 1970s. He likes to pressure people to do him little favours in return for protection (which is literally what he was impeached for the first time). He thinks he can direct industry to do what he wants (and it looks like industry kind of agrees). It is clear he intends to meddle in state law.

They, the people around him, believe in what amounts to a unitary executive that converges on a form of monarchy. It's more or less central to the belief structure of a far-right guru, Curtis Yarvin (who is an ex tech guy and a nasty little racist dweeb):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Yarvin

(He explicitly uses the word "monarch")

There are many Yarvinists in the executive branch. There are also many in the AI community, and Musk consulted Yarvin about The America Party.

Asserting control over academia is a Yarvin thing (and also a Viktor Orbán thing, because the model here is Hungary, quite deliberately, which is why e.g. Tucker Carlson and CPAC hang out there). That is what is going on here. They are injecting the executive into every part of academic life.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#193

Post by exasperaited » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 1:44 AM UTC

ethbr1 wrote: post #144

russellbeattie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This year is definitely the beginning of the end for American scientific leadership. The damage being done is incalculable. The best and brightest simply aren't going to want to come to the U.S. for an uncertain future where they'll be harassed at the airport every trip and then defunded or deported at any time for "political" reasons (a.k.a. racism, bigotry, religion, ignorance and anti-intellectualism). Amazingly,…

> We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left The midterms are in 2026. A swapped House (and/or Senate, but less likely) would drastically shift power.

> The midterms are in 2026.

What is it they say in America? "Oh sweet, summer child?"

Honestly and seriously: look at the abuse of power and its escalation. Consider the consequences to Trump if he lets the House flip. Impeachment again and this time removal really would seem likely.

Now consider, in all detached seriousness: why would a man who tried a coup and thinks he can disappear people to El Salvador let that happen?

Now consider that he's trying to force the creation of a new census that doesn't count illegal immigrants, which is obviously about denying the democrats seats, and he's fired someone for producing numbers he doesn't like and replaced them with "all new numbers".

It's not going to be the end of his interference, right?

The midterms, if they happen, will not flip the House. If they do, he will try to delay, confuse, challenge, set them aside, produce alternative results, claim massive fraud, or interfere with their certification. If he can't stop them, he will threaten them individually until they quit. (Don't say "he can't stop the election, under the constitution"; it's a meaningless phrase now)

You're not having a normal election in 2026.

Even if I turn out to be wrong, I really wish people would start acting as if predictions like these are entirely plausible. Because they are. He's moving much faster than critics expected, and yet he's doing all the things they expected.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#194

Post by AdieuToLogic » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 3:28 AM UTC

derbOac wrote: post #43

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t really understand why so much of science is funded by the government instead of by private philanthropy. Two reasons. First, private philanthropy is neither sustainable nor sufficient in scope. Second, because government funded science is free from having to produce immediate results in order to satisfy the whims of a specific patron such that funding is continued. > It seems like an obvious channel for cor…

> Second, because government funded science is free from having to produce immediate results in order to satisfy the whims of a specific patron such that funding is continued. I agree with you but there's irony (and a possible lesson about motives) in the current situation.

>> Second, because government funded science is free from having to produce immediate results in order to satisfy the whims of a specific patron such that funding is continued.

> I agree with you but there's irony (and a possible lesson about motives) in the current situation.

Quite true, sadly.

I am reminded of an old adage[0]:

  In theory there is no difference between theory and
  practice, while in practice there is.

0 - https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/04/14/theory/

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#195

Post by snovv_crash » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 8:42 AM UTC

burnt-resistor wrote: post #164

ethbr1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Congress has tons of hard checks on executive power. (The Supreme Court, less so if it comes to enforcement and all norms are ignored) That a Republican Congress isn't checking a Republican President isn't evidence of a lack of checks and balances. And points to why the President is pushing so hard for Texas to gerrymander additional Republican seats into the House...

As it stands currently, it's important to disambiguate the nuance that the Senate currently has enormous power while the House has very little real power. In the current context, gerrymandering only serves to prevent impeachment at this point, but it could permit even more extreme executive-dictated, legislative rubber-stamping. In the long-term, it would stack the deck for partisan cheating. Perhaps an amendment is…

IMO rather put a maximum circumference^2:area ratio so they just can't be too long and skinny.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#196

Post by burnt-resistor » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 10:23 AM UTC

snovv_crash wrote: post #195

burnt-resistor wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it stands currently, it's important to disambiguate the nuance that the Senate currently has enormous power while the House has very little real power. In the current context, gerrymandering only serves to prevent impeachment at this point, but it could permit even more extreme executive-dictated, legislative rubber-stamping. In the long-term, it would stack the deck for partisan cheating. Perhaps an amendment is…

IMO rather put a maximum circumference^2:area ratio so they just can't be too long and skinny.

Perhaps every state should be divided by the same, open source, simple and fair algorithm that creates deterministic centroids of people of close to the same population to maximize political competition, not minimize it.

This is something too important to be left to political hacks of some states but not others who seek to cheat at elections to favor incumbents.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#197

Post by tsoukase » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 10:57 AM UTC

Yizahi wrote: post #126

ocschwar wrote: post #31

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

This ends USA, full stop. Not this particular executive order, but his orders in general. It's been half a year and that orange turd has completely overtaken USA legislative branch with this "economic emergency", while bobbleheads in the Congress just signed it away voluntarily. And now he is taking preliminary shots at the judicial branch, trying to eradicate judges who aren't bending the knee. All the while testing…

Trump governs literally as any corrupt leader in any poor country does since ages: he feeds the people with cheap, superficial lies that they like to hear (we call it, he lets them suck a pacifier) while secretly stuffing his mates with money and power.

But that happens in unprecedented amounts in a developed and organised country, maybe soon developing...

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#198

Post by qcnguy » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 12:10 PM UTC

exasperaited wrote: post #191

qcnguy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's government funded it was indeed always under political control, just that some prior politicians chose to let it drift. Having politicians exercise more direct control over this type of spending is good and as it should be. The concept of people taking money via force from other citizens yet answering to nobody is dystopian. The sort of people who support this idea are often, it seems, those who suspect their…

> If it's government funded it was indeed always under political control, just that some prior politicians chose to let it drift. Right, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is under executive control? Is it not the case that Congress usually decides, one way or another, where the money goes, and it's the executive's job to see it does?

Congress puts political appointees in charge of the executive branch specifically to ensure political control.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#199

Post by Ancapistani » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 3:08 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #86

WillPostForFood wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think WWII America was a less oppressive state? Do you know much harder it was to get porn back then? Or be a trans? Japanese internment? Food ration cards? Office of Censorship? Smith Act? The draft? Curfews and blackouts?

All that stuff was bad, especially Japanese internment, but this feels like a whole different category. It's a full-blown ceding control of the country to one man.

FDR had and exercised far more authority than Trump ever dreamed of.

It was so centralized, we effectively had Eleanor Roosevelt as acting President much of the time.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#200

Post by yencabulator » Sat, Aug 09, 2025, 7:52 PM UTC

thisisit wrote: post #149

msgodel wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether it's real or just poor communication a lot of the country felt like the scientific institutions had been weaponized against them. Maybe the constituents of those institutions even believed either making themselves an enemy of the public or creating PR indicating they were was moral but the practical reality of public institutions is that they must have the trust of the public or they will come to an end. Hope…

Really? Is that why Project Warp Speed was both an achievement for Trump and at the same time vaccines were produced too fast and hence unreliable? That is at the same institutions were a friend, when it fit the narrative and enemy, when it didn't fit the narrative. People who say - "Don't trust the government, they make terrible decisions" are now saying "Trust the government". What a turn around. Hopefully people w…

> beginning of the end of American exceptionalism

American exceptionalism has always been a weird delusion, I don't see that ending. USA not being a market leader in , now that can end and it's starting to happen for sure.