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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#191

Post by the__alchemist »

jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

There are policies that vary by branch. The USAF, for example, carries the Beretta M9 pistol (Not sure when they switched to Sig? Must be recent) with the safety off, and in double-action mode. So, round chambered, and a single (hard) trigger pull (Or a manual cock + light pull) will fire the round. Dropping it should not fire it.

I had to carry one in my vest in case of emergencies, and I never felt comfortable being one trigger pull from bang, while it's pointed at my waist for extended periods. Also, the double-action pull sucks, and it's harder to aim straight when putting so much muscle into the pull IMO. Had to have the finger on it in a certain way to get leverage. (The single-action pull after doesn't have this issue)

So, I would accept the weapon from the equipment guys, insert the mag, send the slide forward, put it on fire since that's what you're supposed to do... then put it back on safe.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#192

Post by OJFord »

aerostable_slug wrote: post #46
OJFord wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be your rule, for all I know it's the USAF's rule, but it's not the British Army's, and it doesn't seem logical to me in a military context. (I probably agree with you in the context of 'out in public and have decided you need a firearm', just not 'on a friendly military base and carrying a firearm as a matter of course rather than any acute reason'.)

The Royal Marines of 43 Commando guarding the nukes at Faslane have loaded weapons. The Security Forces at the base in question guard strategic nuclear weapons. The other USAF command most concerned is USAFE, where the threat of terrorism against a USAF facility is greater than in the mainland US.

Sure, there are scenarios. Article describes a classroom or briefing type situation though, it's holstered but on the desk. This is not someone on duty guarding anything.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#193

Post by 8note »

esseph wrote: post #137
jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

Always carry chambered. 1. When you need it you won't remember to chamber due to stress 2. stress causes fine motor skill distortion 3. Only draw when you are prepared to fire (or you end up dealing with Brandishing laws)

a better alternative would be to not carry. if the stress is gonna mess with your fine motor control, youre probably gonna accidentally shoot a bystander anyways, because you happened to have been laid off earlier in the day.

the stree messes with your memory, so the barista looks like a threat. the stress messes with your fine motor skill, so you hit the guy waiting for his coffee. and of course, you gotta shoot the rest so theres no witnesses to have you charged for not actually doing self defence

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#194

Post by pauljara »

spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

I'm a recently licensed firearms owner from Canada and as part of the safety training part of the licensing process, I became aware of how unsafe the P320 seemed to be. It really feels like that model needs to be taken off-market, undergo significant redesign, and for Sig's marketing sake, probably re-emerge as some new model like the SP321 where the S stands for "safety" :-)

What I'm not as familiar with is why hasn't Sig done this? It really feels like they've been doing ad-hoc patch design adjustments to a fundamentally unsafe design at this point. But I'm also not very knowledgeable about firearms yet.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#195

Post by gosub100 »

Alupis wrote: post #183
303uru wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not taking odds on an edc item which takes a lot of banging around. Glock 18 is a simple choice.

I'm still very curious why the P320 beat out the venerable Glock 17 & 19 combo in the Army's recent selection. It would seem being able to change from duty to compact is more of a gimmick than practical. I'd wager most P320's will spend their service life in exactly one configuration. Sig does have a way of making every pistol feel like it was custom molded to your hand - but Glocks "Just Work".

Here is an entire video talking about it, by an attorney who works in the firearms industry:

https://youtu.be/7NXDuKQF9kU?si=uRXnYvhMMKIN8BKa

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#196

Post by homefree »

nosignono wrote: post #108
homefree wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was in the holster, most people don't teach that the muzzle direction rule applies (since in the holster it's supposed to be inert). A lot of carry methods have the muzzle pointing at things you would not want it pointing at when unholstered.

In general the safety rules I was taught were defense in depth -- multiple failures need to happen before someone can get hurt. So, even when you have a holstered firearm, pointing the muzzle away from people is preferable because then if it somehow does fail at least it's less likely to shoot someone. Obviously that's not always practical, but if you are placing a chambered firearm down on a desk, you might as well…

Yeah I don’t disagree and do the same

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#197

Post by ImJamal »

OJFord wrote: post #190
ImJamal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military police need them to prevent people from entering the base.

Ok, but not relevant.

Many police carry a secondary handgun in case they lose their primary or whatever.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#198

Post by gosub100 »

evantbyrne wrote: post #101
0x457 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So every second counts?

Can't pull when someone randomly has the drop on you chambered or not. Have to retreat/conceal first anyways. Far more likely to have a tragic accident than ever saving someone. Not long ago someone accidentally shot the neighbor's house right into the bathroom. Accidents happen way more frequently than random crime and should be the top concern for gun owners.

Then why aren't the police constantly having accidents blowing holes in everything?

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#199

Post by spacephysics »

spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

A week or so ago the FBI report investigating an incident of unintentional discharge back in 2024 was released via FOIA. This particular case was a police officer who had the firearm in the holster, and by just normal movement it went off. Multiple layers of the striker fire system safety’s failed, and fired the chambered round.

What was particularly beneficial/unique is the P320 was kept in the holster when given to the FBI to investigate, and only removed after their forensic team X-rayed it, giving us pretty solid case study of how it happens

This guy does a great job going through the report: https://youtu.be/LfnhTYeVHHE

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#200

Post by spacephysics »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #97

I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge…

Their report outlined here and the police officer’s account of the unintentional discharge occurred without dropping and while securely in the holster without any items intruding in the holster (i say that because it was a prior excuse Sig made for the unintentional discharge reports)

https://youtu.be/LfnhTYeVHHE

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