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What to expect from Debian/Trixie

michael-prokop.at

191–200 of 211 posts

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#191
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sane thing is to have swap enabled. Having swap "disabled" forces your system to swap out executables to disk, since these are likely the only memory-mapped files you have. So, if your memory fills up, you get catastrophic thrashing of the instruction cache. If you're lucky, you really go over available memory, and the OOMKiller kills some random process. But if you're not, your system will keep chugging along at…

Having swap "disabled" forces your system to swap out executables to disk Read-only pages are never written to swap, because they can be retrieved as-is from the filesystem already. Binaries and libraries are accounted as buffer cache, not used memory, and under memory pressure those pages are simply dropped, not swapped out. Whether you have swap enabled or disabled doesn't change that. Still, I hope that Debian doe…

> under memory pressure those pages are simply dropped, not swapped out

This is just semantics. The pages are evicted from memory, knowing that they are backed by the disk, and can be swapped back in from disk when needed - behavior that I called "swapping out" since it's pretty similar to what happens with other memory pages in the presence of swap.

Regardless of the naming, the important part is what happens when the page is needed again. If your code page was evicted, when your thread gets scheduled again, it will ask for the page to be read back into memory, requiring a disk read; this will cause some other code page to be evicted; then a new thread will be scheduled - worse case, one that uses the exact code page that just got evicted, repeating the process. And since the scheduler will generally try to execute the thread that has been waiting the most, while the VMM will prefer to evict the oldest read pages, there is actually a decent chance that this exact worse case will happen a lot. This whole thing will completely freeze the system to a degree that is extremely unlikely for a system with a decent amount of swap space.

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#192
post #70

I've been running testing/trixie since the end of 2023 or so. (I generally always run testing, but stick with stable for ~6 months after stabilization, in order to avoid lots of package churn in new-testing.) It's been what I expect from Debian: boring and functional. I've never run into an issue where the system wouldn't boot after an update (I usually update once every 2-4 weeks when on testing), and for the most p…

This is exactly why I use Debian when I install Linux. I want something that will keep chugging along, yet may not have the most cutting edge software. I can take my time with the system, and know that it is solid. If I need newer software that isn't in their package repository, I understand that I have the ability to compile what I need, or at least make an active decision to modify my system to run what I want. Bas…

Same here. I run Debian and docker on top to have current services that do not friend on the host freshness.

I just need boring stability to wildly experiment in isolation

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#193
One problem I have with major version upgrades of Linux distributions is the number of changes to different programs/systems. Every 18 months I have to learn how to do a number of things differently. Program x disappears, you are told you have to use y now. Linux has been around for decades at this point. Something that old should be considered mature and not need major changes.

Do we really need a new major version of gtk/qt or a different firewall program, when all those things have existed for many years?

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well openSUSE Leap 16.0 will be launched in October 1st, it will be supported for some time. At least 7 years.

I don't think they promise more than three years? (Not a criticism in the slightest, I don't demand anything from unpaid volunteers.) "RHEL" is supported for 10, and if Oracle screws us over (I can believe in that possibility), ELevate lets you migrate sideways to any supported alternative. It really depends on the use case.

It uses semantic versioning. Maybe that's where our different assessments lie.

For example, 15.6 was still stuck on GCC 7. Guess when 15.0 was released. Also, stuck on Python 3.6, which was released around the same time.

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#195
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If /tmp/ fills up your RAM tmpfs by default only uses up to half your available RAM unless specified otherwise. So this isn't really a consideration unless you configure it to be a consideration you need to take into account. (Systemd also really recently (v258) added quotas to tmpfs and IIRC its set by default to 80% of the tmpfs, so it is even less of a problem)

$ grep tmpfs /proc/mounts udev /dev devtmpfs [..] tmpfs /run tmpfs [..] tmpfs /run/lock tmpfs [..] tmpfs /run/shm tmpfs [..] tmpfs /tmp tmpfs [..] cgroup_root /sys/fs/cgroup tmpfs [..] If each of those can take up 50% of ram, this is still a big problem. I don't know what defaults Debian uses nowadays, because I have TMPFS_SIZE=1% in /etc/default/tmpfs so my system is explicitly non-default.

Sure, but counterpoint: if a process is already writing that much in multiple of those directories, who knows what its writing in other directories that aren't backed by RAM.

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#196
post #181
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debian, at least until bookworm works perfectly without systemd. The easiest way to make this transition, is to installed Debian with nothing but 'standard system utilities' and 'SSH server' (if you want) during install: https://forum.qubes-os.org/uploads/db3820/original/2X/c/c774... Once install is done, login and save this file: /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd # this is the only systemd package that is required, so…

Note that this will still allow systemd-udevd because it's packaged under its original name, udev.

yeah. you need eudev instead. still, I appreciate the guide!

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#197
post #153
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This worked brilliantly in Debian for more than a decade, had almost zero downside, and just did what asked. I went through 3+ dist-upgrades, for the first time in my life, without a NIC change. It was deprecated for this nonsense in systemd. Yes, there were edge cases in the Debian scheme. Yet it did work with VMs (as most VMs kept the same MAC in config files), and it was easy to maintain if you wanted 'fresh'. Jus…

systemd's design choices here were influenced by a lot of bugs Red Hat received where failed hardware was swapped out and interface names changed as a result. Real world enterprise users wanted this, it wasn't an arbitrary design choice.

> systemd's design choices here were influenced by a lot of bugs Red Hat received where failed hardware was swapped out and interface names changed as a result.

Under RH-based systems the ifcfg-* files had a HWADDR variable, so if you swapped a card you could get the new MAC address and plug it in there and get the same interface name. There was also udevd rules where you map names to particular hardware, including particular MACs.

> Real world enterprise users wanted this, it wasn't an arbitrary design choice.

As a real world sysadmin, working now a few of decades in this field (starting with non-EL-RH, then BSD, then Solaris, then RHEL, Debian, and now Ubuntu), I have never wanted this.

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#198
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly the problem. It’s not obvious, is misleading and it’s cause is not easily determined just by looking at the config. What else is lurking that you and I aren’t aware of?

The problem is that SSH is usually the admin interface to the system. You don't want unnecessary moving parts between you and your remote shell access when you need to troubleshoot a half-running system.

I agree with everything but your indication that the problem is limited to only SSH.

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#199
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed that has this option enabled by default. Until about a year ago, whenever I would try to download moderately large files (>4GB) my whole system would grind to a halt and stop responding. It took me MONTHS to figure out what's the problem. Turns out that a lot of applications use /tmp for storing files while they're downloading. And a lot of these applications don't cleanup on fail, some…

How did you figure that this was the problem? If it's easily reproducible, I guess checking `top` while downloading a large file might have given a clue, since you could have seen that you're running out of memory?

I was trying to solve another problem related to mounting, ran `df -h` a couple times and noticed that:

  1) tmpfs is mounted to /tmp
  2) available size on /tmp is very low
  3) my free ram indicator in status bar is red
And then I tried downloading some files while looking at htop. It was immeduately obvious that it was the problem causing the hangs.

Re: What to expect from Debian/Trixie

#200
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost daily at work. Always have to verify with my fedora machines that it is indeed debian/ubuntu and not upstream.

debian or ubuntu? I have had terrible experience in the past with ubuntu breaking randomly, but debian has been fairly stable for a desktop machine

At home with debian testing.

At work I usually have to spend 6 hours per day to fix random Ubuntu issues on code which works fine on Fedora. Usually Ubuntu 20 and 22.

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