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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#191

Post by mmcnl »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #120
solardev wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this miss differences between CPUs in their per-core efficiency?

The per-core efficiency of Apple and AMD CPUs on the same process node is pretty much identical. This has become harder to directly compare because they're now using alternate process nodes from one another, but have a look at this chart for example: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_benchmark-cpu_performance_... What do we see at the top of this chart? TSMC 3nm (M3/M4), followed by TSMC 4nm (Ryzen 7000U/8000U), TSMC…

You're linking to a multi-core benchmark. The story is a lot more in favor of Apple if you look at single-core efficiency, Apple is roughly 2-3x more efficient: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Lunar-Lake-CPU-analysis-...

And this benchmark doesn't even include M4, which is even more efficient.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#192

Post by mmcnl »

kej wrote: post #165
mhitza wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm…

> thermal, fan noise issues Anecdotal, obviously, but disabling Turbo-Core [0] on my AMD Framework 13 stopped all of my fan noise and heat complaints, with no noticeable performance impacts. It went from being so loud that my wife on the other side of the room would ask if my computer was okay to quieter than my ThinkPad, and from noticeably hot to just slightly warm. Kind of ridiculous that it takes messing with an…

You might not have noticed, but your single-core performance will take a serious hit if you disable turbo boost. For the AMD 7480u, turbo boost frequency is 5.1Ghz vs 3.3GHz base clock frequency. If you disable turbo boost you lose 36% single-core performance.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#193

Post by v5v3 »

paddy_m wrote: post #27

What do you all use for a modern web development machine. 16GB of ram is no longer enough, I will soon upgrade to a new MBA with 32GB, but I still fear that won't be enough. I was looking at the latest framework and you can get it with 96GB of ram for $2k, that's $3600-$3800 for a mac and it's a much larger mac than I want. A quick scan of Dell and Lenovo non workstation class laptops didn't show any with more than 3…

Switch from docker to one of the other alternatives and wi be less ram probably.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#194

Post by hokumguru »

mmcnl wrote: post #186
nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

I don't really understand the repairability appeal of the Framework. Hasn't that already been a selling point for the business line laptops of HP, Lenovo and Dell for years? They all offer premium business laptops with removable RAM, SSD and battery and very detailed maintenance guides. Part availability is good too.

What’s the current procedure for getting HP or Lenovo or Dell to sell you replacement monitor? What about just a chassis if you drop yours and get a dent? Even a spare battery? If you’re not buying one of their premium business laptops, you’re kind of SOL.

How about in five years from now when all of that is still fine, but you just want to replace the mainboard.

What about when framework comes out with upgrades down the line? The great thing is because they’re so modular you can just buy that and slap it in without having to buy an entirely new machine.

That’s the appeal

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#195

Post by chpatrick »

mmcnl wrote: post #186
nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

I don't really understand the repairability appeal of the Framework. Hasn't that already been a selling point for the business line laptops of HP, Lenovo and Dell for years? They all offer premium business laptops with removable RAM, SSD and battery and very detailed maintenance guides. Part availability is good too.

To a point, but new mainboard means new laptop for all of those brands. With Framework it's a five minute process to get a new CPU.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#196

Post by mmcnl »

f1shy wrote: post #133
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

Exactly that is what I think, and I do think it is just not possible. I’m searching for a new laptop, I want unix, so either linux or macos. I was looking at framework, system76, tuxedo and slimbooks, and mac air. I want an ANSI keyboard, which seems an oddity in Europe (there is English iso, which viscerally hate) If you want thunderbolt ports, and some good specs, mac air is cheaper. And I’ve heard with arm process…

In The Netherlands ANSI is the most common keyboard layout, so you might want to look there if you really want/need ANSI. Only Apple and Logitech are outliers and insist on ISO.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#197

Post by arccy »

mac-attack wrote: post #155
ItCouldBeWorse wrote: post #137

> A good laptop, but not a good value One of my mentors had the great sentence: "I dont buy laptops- they suck, because they are tailored to transport. I buy desktops- and connect them via internet to flat transportable terminals. And desktops can be upgraded, merged, reused and send to the closet as server at the EOL-" And he was kind of right. For almost all purposes, even for gaming in a way- a remote desktop is k…

I am of the same mind. Desktop for heavy lifting and a mid-range Chromebook (technically a chrultrabook now) for browsing w/ a lightweight yet modern feel. I do think the plunge to leveraging a desktop/server across devices does require an understanding of ssh/rdp and tailscale/reverse proxies though, which is why it isn't as popular as it could be.

Reliability of Internet is also a problem

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#199

Post by Const-me »

rkagerer wrote: post #166

At the high end, what are some alternative laptops you would consider which are not Apple? (Preferably with full-sized arrow keys)

Couple months ago, I have replaced 3.5 years old HP Probook with XMG EVO 14. Specifically, I have ordered a configuration with Ryzen 7 8845HS, 64GB DDR5-5600, and no disks because I reused 4TB WD Red SN700 from the old laptop, and still have the second M2 2280 slot free should I need more storage.

Pretty good laptop, the screen is great even, colour-calibrated 2880×1800 IPS configurable to 60 Hz refresh rate. However, the up/down arrow keys are not full size, their height is smaller.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#200

Post by CoffeeOnWrite »

linsomniac wrote: post #190
atrus wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…

Because the old machine is still useful intact. I don’t see a difference between laptop and desktop here. I agree I don’t see myself ever swapping in an upgraded motherboard.
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