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Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

thecity.nyc

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Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#191

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

someothherguyy wrote: post #149
unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your outrage is not that ICE is acting illegally but that they are enforcing US law. Having local law enforcement launch some kind of insurrection is the kind of myopic nonsense you would have condemned a few years ago, even months. Heck, for the last 50 years the Imperial Presidency also was a bipartisan consensus. It looks different when it's your ox getting gored, but the solution is actually temperance, restraint…

> Your outrage is not that ICE is acting illegally but that they are enforcing US law. https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/how-ice-sidestep...

Again, I pointed out ICE is enforcing US law, and you responded with an article about Colorado law.

In a different time, public officials in such a situation would have demurred with a deft "I've read the Constitution."[1][2] I wonder what changed.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption

[2] https://nationalpolice.org/federal-supremacy-how-conflicting...

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#192

Post by apparent »

dragonwriter wrote: post #143
potholereseller wrote: post #53

The actual title of the acticle is "Brad Lander Detained by Masked Federal Agents Inside Immigration Court". Contrary to the current title here on HN, Lander was not arrested for asking to see a warrant; TFA states the opposite, "It wasn’t immediately clear what charges, if any, the mayoral candidate will face. A spokesperson for ICE didn’t immediately return a request for comment." If an event is so important to kno…

He was, in fact, arrested for asking to see a warrant, that is clearly documented. The claims of assault that DHS fabricated and published on social media and via other channels after the fact to justify it, of which there is no evidence, before Lander was released without any charges are interesting in terms of understanding the current regime's propaganda propensity, but have nothing to do with explaining the event…

CBS reports he was arrested for assaulting an officer and impeding a federal enforcement action, or some such thing.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#193

Post by timr »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #188
timr wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ununiformed, masked men that refuse to identify themselves and won't show any legal documents have unilateral authority and cannot be questioned. Do not resist. Again, Brad Lander was not being detained. He had nothing to do with anything. That's not "resistance", it's just interference.

Brad Lander saw unidentified, masked, ununiformed men who refused to speak, had no legal documentation, and would not identify themselves to anyone carrying a man against his will. I hope it's not against the rules to swear, but this cannot be stated clearly enough: That's called a fucking kidnapping. Did you not hear that someone pretending to be LEO attempted (and succeed in one case) the political assassination of…

> Brad Lantern saw unidentified, masked, ununiformed men who refused to speak, had no legal documentation, and would not identify themselves to anyone carrying a man against his will.

Brad Lander was at the man's trial for illegal immigration, which was in a federal court building. So, you know...context matters. Also you can clearly see uniforms in the video [1], but I digress.

There is exactly zero chance that Lander was under the illusion that this hypothetical, rogue, pirate kidnapping operation smuggled themselves into a federal immigration court, Boondock Saints-style, in order to abduct the one guy Lander happened to be watching in the immigration trial just moments before.

[1] https://www.amny.com/news/brad-lander-arrested-ice-court-hea...

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#194

Post by metalcrow »

fzeroracer wrote: post #165
stingrae wrote: post #22

It is insane that federal agents are allowed to roam around in masks, without ID and just arrest people.

The speed with which other Americans went from 'we need guns to protect ourselves from the feds trampling over our rights' to 'federal agents bagging someone with zero identification or justification is OK actually' really does go to show how much of that was bluster. It's obvious to me that if federal agents weren't concerned with backlash for obviously illegal actions they would properly present themselves.

The true reason for this is that there are two (basically) groups of people in the US. The group that is pro gun might be opposed to this, but are not going to directly use weapons to defend themselves unless targeted. And they are not being targeted in this situation, so we don't see that coming into play.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#195

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

timr wrote: post #158
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "let them do it, and try to rectify wrongs later" model is why we end up with innocent gay hairdressers in CECOT. There are clearly established procedures for US law enforcement (which includes ICE). If they are not following those procedures, then any citizen has the right to raise this as an issue, politician or not. They don't get to just haul people away because you have no "official capacity". Do you have a…

> Do you have a legal right to see the documents that MUST be presented to the person they are seeking to detain? Probably not. Do you have a moral duty to insist the US law enforcement HAS that document before leaving the situation? Many people would say yes. Well, you can theorize a "moral duty" to do whatever you want, but that won't stop you from getting actually arrested, under real laws. But you do you. The thi…

Getting arrested for complaining about illegal law enforcement action that is taking place is the sort of downside that history will write as heroic.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#196

Post by anon291 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #154
timr wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm upset because a US citizen was arrested for asking a reasonable question to some government officials before complying with the government officials. Some basic facts are true here: a) Brad Lander had no official capacity in that situation. b) As a random person, he had no right to demand to see any documents, whatsoever, from the people doing the arrest. c) Even if he thought the detention was illegal , and th…

This "let them do it, and try to rectify wrongs later" model is why we end up with innocent gay hairdressers in CECOT. There are clearly established procedures for US law enforcement (which includes ICE). If they are not following those procedures, then any citizen has the right to raise this as an issue, politician or not. They don't get to just haul people away because you have no "official capacity". Do you have a…

> any citizen has the right to raise this as an issue, politician or not. They don't get to just haul people away because you have no "official capacity".

Yes, you do have a right to raise this as an issue... but not anywhere anyway. In all this discussion about the rule of law, we forget that the rule of the law also dictates how citizen redresses are to be handled... in a court of law, using established procedures.

> The 2nd amendment crowd are strong on the idea of guns as a means of resisting tyranny. Other people feel similarly about standing up to law enforcement being done illegally.

False equivocation... The 2nd amendment crowd has an amendment to our constitution allowing them to do what they do: own weapons. There is no amendment that lets you willy-nilly march into a court and demand papers. If you want that, I would suggest writing your legislator to propose such an amendment.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#197

Post by anon291 »

kevinh wrote: post #178
timr wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a bunch of armed thugs who aren't wearing uniforms or badges show up and abduct someone citizens don't have the right or obligation to do something about it? Sure you do. Call the police. Record it, capture the details for evidence. > Just stand back and watch? Again, you're welcome to call the police. But no, you don't just get to rush in and start interfering because your sophisticated understanding of the cir…

A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.

And a few days ago, some guy crossed a border with a young girl he passed off as his daughter when in reality he was a sex trafficker and going to sell the girl into sex slavery.

Since we're all clutching our pearls, we might as well clutch all of them.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#198

Post by metalcrow »

Juliate wrote: post #40

There's a thing I don't get, as a non-USAmerican. If someone unidentified, masked, showing no warrant, no legal justification of anything, kidnaps/attempts to kidnap someone, how are (organised) citizens not in their legitimate right to retaliate, according to what their local state allows them to? Similarly, why/how are the law enforcement units not taking side against those kidnapping? I mean, in my country, this w…

In theory, they are within their rights to retaliate. If an unknown person tried to kidnap you and doesn't present any form of ID, you have a very very strong case of self defense and genuine threat, and that would likely (IANAL) hold up in court if you ended up shooting them. It ended up holding up for Randy Weaver! You would want to surrender immediately upon being shown some ID, of course, but you could get away with it.

As for why law enforcement isn't taking sides, it's because doing so would basically be the start of a state succession attempt, and would bring federal agents in to take over the state. Some states have claimed they are willing to do that in certain situations (Alaska has said in the past it will use state troopers against government if they try to enact certain gun control laws), but no one is willing to go there yet. The best they can do now is categorically refuse to assist the feds.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#199

Post by anon291 »

jzebedee wrote: post #50
ars wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Editorializing what, exactly? The rule of law? "what they were doing" is attempting to illegally abduct someone. The comptroller's "impeding" was a demand to see the one thing that would make their request a legal arrest. Instead, they arrested the comptroller without even a pretense of the law.

You can legally arrest someone without a warrant, if they are committing a crime

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#200

Post by anon291 »

atmavatar wrote: post #98
incomingpain wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They arent. They need probable cause to arrest just like any other law enforcement. If they just arrest you because you're annoying or fake charges. You can sue them for deprivation of rights.

Of course, all that assumes the detainee is given due process. If they're just going to kidnap people and take them away to El Salvadorian prisons, things like probable cause, miranda rights, and evidence are moot.

Except that is not what is happening. Usually, if you're arrested in the process of them trying to simply make space to carry out their official business, you just get removed and released. That is what is happening here. Contrary to various claims that citizens are being 'deported' en masse. Fewer than 70 out of millions of deportations last year were US citizens. These were either mistakes or had good reasons (such as minor citizen children).
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