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On loyalty to your employer (2018)

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Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#191

Post by riehwvfbk »

simpaticoder wrote: post #182
horsawlarway wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". People - people can absolutely deserve loyalty, and those people can be managers, coworkers, spouses, family, etc. But don't mix the two up in your mind.

>Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". A country is a thing and loyalty to it is called "patriotism". A sports-team or TV show or band is a thing, loyalty to it is called "fandom". Loyalty to an idea or philosophy is called "being principled" or "idealism". Do you believe that things don't deserve loyalty, such that all of these are errors? Or do these examples not capture the sense of your stateme…

That's right, they do not deserve loyalty. All of these things hijack our loyalty to people in the name of some higher-order goal. Sports team and TV show loyalty is there to get us to consume more. Loyalty to a country gets us to be reliable cogs in someone else's grand project. Loyalty to a philosophy gets us to be a cult leader's acolyte.

Skip the substitute and go for the real thing: loyalty to people. You can still join grand projects, but do it consciously rather than on instinct.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#192

Post by stonemetal12 »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #4

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.” I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies. I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its m…

I hate that quote, it is so trite and stupid.

What poor person wouldn't want to have provided more for their family. What scientist would say I discovered enough. What engineer would say I built enough.

When you are alone who or what do you think about? People have different goals, dreams and desires. Claiming yours are the only ones worthy of pursuing seems rather arrogant.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#193

Post by mancerayder »

pydry wrote: post #40
PeterStuer wrote: post #5

Systemically, there is a bias to find/retain employees that overcommit, and a bias for employers that will undercommit to the "relationship". Rationally you can agree it is a purely transactional state. Working hours for compensation. Emotionally in tech many love the work itself, or the nerdy glamour of the industry, or the inherent intelectual bravadory and oneupmanship, and so are ripe for exploitation. HR will dr…

I haven't seen much of a bias towards seeking out a predisposition to loyalty in employees except among authoritarian small business owner types who invariably underpay. I don't think offering perks is necessarily supposed to engender loyalty. It's still a transactional relationship ("ok, google might pay less than the startup but I do get free lunches at google..."). In most companies I have more often seen not even…

>I haven't seen much of a bias towards seeking out a predisposition to loyalty in employees except among authoritarian small business owner types who invariably underpay.

It's easy. Some red flags:

"This is not a 9 to 5 job, you should know that. But that's normal in this industry"

"We're looking for people who are passionate about their work"

"I won't sugarcoat it, there are good and bad weeks" in terms of workload and hours

"We see a gap in your resume here a decade ago - may I ask why you took time off during this time"

etc

Those are signals.

There's a normalization of sociopathy in the hiring process. That's how we filter. Or maybe it's just financial services?

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#194

Post by OpenDrapery »

Apocryphon wrote: post #184
simpaticoder wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". A country is a thing and loyalty to it is called "patriotism". A sports-team or TV show or band is a thing, loyalty to it is called "fandom". Loyalty to an idea or philosophy is called "being principled" or "idealism". Do you believe that things don't deserve loyalty, such that all of these are errors? Or do these examples not capture the sense of your stateme…

Perhaps it should be refined to say that "profit-oriented things" that view existence as purely transactions don't deserve loyalty.

Sports franchises are the ultimate trick, in that they are profit-oriented, yet they somehow play on our tribal nature and fool us into forgetting about the profit part.

I guess you could argue the same for a church.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#195

Post by tomashubelbauer »

Apocryphon wrote: post #167
Retric wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstood what I was describing. 70 year olds can be quite productive doing manual labor in a way that basically no 90 year olds can.

Except for, perhaps, Clint Eastwood.

I was thinking about John B Goodenough

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#196

Post by kubb »

martindbp wrote: post #162
maccard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the middle ground is healthy. I'm in my early 30's, I have a job that I get to "create" in (I make video games). > I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its many sights and wonders? Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead? H…

> I would _much_ rather live in a nice house in a nice area with exciting things to do from my mid 20's onwards and enjoy those things for years and years and years, rather than live in a smaller/cheaper/farther out place so that I can retire 10 years earlier and start living. That's a false dichotomy. You can retire at least 25-30 years earlier than normal if you are a bit mindful of your spending and earn a decent…

If normal is 65, then you’re saying you can retire at 35. I have a great salary and I pretty much don’t spend except necessities (rent, food, clothes, healthcare). I’m not even close.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#197

Post by senderista »

simpaticoder wrote: post #182
horsawlarway wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". People - people can absolutely deserve loyalty, and those people can be managers, coworkers, spouses, family, etc. But don't mix the two up in your mind.

>Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". A country is a thing and loyalty to it is called "patriotism". A sports-team or TV show or band is a thing, loyalty to it is called "fandom". Loyalty to an idea or philosophy is called "being principled" or "idealism". Do you believe that things don't deserve loyalty, such that all of these are errors? Or do these examples not capture the sense of your stateme…

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country."

--EM Forster, "What I Believe"

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#198

Post by Apocryphon »

OpenDrapery wrote: post #194
Apocryphon wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it should be refined to say that "profit-oriented things" that view existence as purely transactions don't deserve loyalty.

Sports franchises are the ultimate trick, in that they are profit-oriented, yet they somehow play on our tribal nature and fool us into forgetting about the profit part. I guess you could argue the same for a church.

Thanks to the financialization of everything, perhaps the same can be said of colleges and universities!

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#199

Post by moribvndvs »

I am just old enough to grow up amongst company men, believing that if you take care of a company, they will take care of you, and that a career at one organization is a prosperous and beneficial one. I found out the hard way (worked 20 years at essentially the same company) that this notion was dead or dying before I was even born, is virtually non-existent in tech companies, and is kinda dangerous to your career in this industry.

I still _like_ the idea, but remember loyalty much like respect is earned, not demanded or obligated. When it comes down to it, they don’t give a shit about you, so take care of yourself.

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