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The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

meghanboilard.substack.com

191–200 of 214 posts

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#191
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animals compete, human beings cooperate. Animals do cooperate, a lot and frequently. Including predators like lions. There are solitary animals, but cooperation is not rare. > Animals take advantage of others, human beings care for others by helping them and protecting them from harm. Animals do help others and try to protect them from harm.

> Animals do cooperate, a lot and frequently. Including predators like lions. There are solitary animals, but cooperation is not rare. That is just pack behavior. Animals are nearly always at war among their own for territory, and will often attack other kinds animals that compete for their food sources, unless there is mutual benefit (e.g. deers and monkeys sharing alarm calls for tigers). > Animals do help others a…

> Animals are nearly always at war among their own for territory,

This is not true. Quite a lot of animals are neither territorial nor at war constantly.

> will often attack other kinds animals that compete for their food sources

You should know that non aggressive animals exist. They are not some kind of exception at all. That being said, people have literal wars over important resources. They are no strangers of systematically abusing half the population or more ... or even enslaving them. There are people who believe empathy is weakness and they won election, because huge amounts of electorate agrees.

> , unless there is mutual benefit (e.g. deers and monkeys sharing alarm calls for tigers).

Nice example of cooperation. It is no different then humans cooperating with each other.

> Not their competitors, friend.

What kind of new standard you are putting on in there? How do you define competitor and is it really that different then social behavior of people? Like right now, you see half of America cheering on harm done to other Americans. You see them attacking other countries and people over percieved competition ... that completely their own construction.

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#192
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other humans are not "dogs" or "pigs". So why is the verse there? > Jesus is explicitly advocating welfare - providing food, drink, clothes, healthcare, and more to anyone in need. There is nothing in this verse which says that property is to be expropriated for the purposes of assuring others a particular standard of living, and I don’t think you’ll be able to find one. > Jesus was also unambiguous on wealth. Chri…

> There is nothing in this verse which says that property is to be expropriated for the purposes of assuring others a particular standard of living, and I don’t think you’ll be able to find one. You're right; we have the free will to be as miserly as we choose. But if you want to be of Christ, you'll give your 5% or 10%, at least. Our societies also have the free will to choose to tax the rich to help the poor. A gov…

> but our govt should reflect the generosity of spirit we are called to manifest.

The whole notion of state welfare necessarily involves the forcible expropriation of property, resistance to which is punishable by death. If I took $20 out of your wallet and gave it to someone else who I thought needed it more, it would not be charity, it would be theft.

> i.e. we cannot serve two masters

This was never suggested. Wealth is a tool. Where it becomes fetishized as an end in and of itself, it becomes objectionable. You'll note that the device you're using to post in this thread is in all likelihood worth more than most people on earth earn in a year. Is your soul in danger because you own a laptop, or is there more nuance to this issue than you're suggesting?

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#193

I wish the author was a little less over-wrought in her descriptions of the Green family's religious commitments. I've heard complaints before about the Green's artifact acquisition process, and they've had to return some manuscripts: it's a story worth investigating and telling. But it distracts from the author's main point when she's making snide comments about their faith. Yes, they're Christians who are successfu…

Isn’t the hobby lobby crew also notoriously queer bashers? I would think the issue is not so much that they’re Christian, it’s that they’re hypocrites who use Christianity as a smokescreen for bigotry. (The relevance being, they’re using Christianity as cover for capitalism in a way that Jesus himself, as depicted in the Bible, would certainly never have sanctioned.)

If your morality welcomes homosexuality, that's fine. But anti-homosexuality is not un-Christian.

Jesus never opposed "capitalism" in secular life.

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#194
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people are down voting you, your observations are something I've sadly noticed happening for a long time now. The perception of Christianity among people who don't identify with any religion or people who fall into more "liberal" circles has absolutely been tainted by sects/members of Christianity that do not at all represent the teachings in the Bible. There is justifiable resentment towards these g…

> But it absolutely leads to the phenomenon of otherwise moderate or formerly left leaning Christians moving towards the group that doesn't wear their not so thinly veiled hate openly on their sleeves for something deeply personal and important in their lives. You are the company you keep and shifting over like this brings you more in line mentally overtime with the kind of people you don't want to emulate. If you're…

If the goal is to truly change societal worldview and not just rack up "winning" dunks on an acceptable target that doesn't matter.

Human beings don't tend to enjoy being insulted and ostracized. Telling someone to "put up with our abuse or you're one of the bad guys" is going to make you seem unhinged and unreasonable to anyone you are trying to win over. Saying "well, we bullied them into the arms of the opposition, so they've proved our point and we can retroactively justify all the hate we gave and will continue to give them" isn't a very strong argument to bring them over to your side either. People deal with perceived threats by banding together with others they feel have their back. The left gave up an appreciable chunk of the American voting base which is fine if they really don't want to pander to them, but complaining that a voting group is acting in their perceived best interests when their two options are between a group that's verbally and culturally hostile towards them and makes no indication that they aren't going to do anything but get MORE hostile towards them (just look at some of the vitriol posted in this thread) and a group that embraces them with open arms and puts on a reasonable facade is silly. What else do people really expect?

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#195
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other humans are not "dogs" or "pigs". So why is the verse there? > Jesus is explicitly advocating welfare - providing food, drink, clothes, healthcare, and more to anyone in need. There is nothing in this verse which says that property is to be expropriated for the purposes of assuring others a particular standard of living, and I don’t think you’ll be able to find one. > Jesus was also unambiguous on wealth. Chri…

>So why is the verse there? You're the one who cited it, it's up to you to demonstrate that it's relevant in this context. >There is nothing in this verse which says that property is to be expropriated for the purposes of assuring others a particular standard of living, and I don’t think you’ll be able to find one. The verse is literally instructing that anyone in need is to be helped. It does not specify the source…

> Anyone professing to be a Christian should be in favor of those with plenty providing for those in need.

That isn't what you originally claimed and is not what I'm taking issue with. What you said was: "Anyone who takes that message and instead lobbies to destroy healthcare and welfare and to push hate and attack anyone who doesn't agree with them [...] is not a Christian regardless of how they spend their Sundays."

What you're saying is that anyone who does not support the welfare state as an apparatus is not a Christian, and I am contesting that, because there have been plenty of moral theories developed by Christians who opposed state welfare. Consider that the device you are using to post is likely worth more than the majority of the world's population earns in a year. Does it stand to reason that I could justifiably take it away from you and give it to someone who needed it more? What if we formed a committee you had no part in and voted on it being the right thing to do?

> Ignoring the theological debate on if "Jesus is God", Jesus' statements and commandments came later and supersede anything which came before.

Denying the divinity of Jesus undermines the entire belief system. It seems to me that you can't reconcile the treatment of Job with your reading of the New Testament, so you've decided to disregard the story entirely. There is some basis to this (e.g. the mixed fabrics issue you addressed in another comment), but it isn't as simple as saying "We can disregard everything prior to the New Testament."

> We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate.

Young translates that line as authority, not "right." In the KJV (which is the version I originally read), it is translated as "power." That is, because the author has come to minister to the church, he has the authority to ask for bread without having to work for it, but he does not, because he does not want to burden those around him: "8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:"

The passage continues after this line: "10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. [...] 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread."

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#196

I wish the author was a little less over-wrought in her descriptions of the Green family's religious commitments. I've heard complaints before about the Green's artifact acquisition process, and they've had to return some manuscripts: it's a story worth investigating and telling. But it distracts from the author's main point when she's making snide comments about their faith. Yes, they're Christians who are successfu…

Prosperity gospel is a peculiar American brand of protestant pentecostal evangelism that is the motivating aspect of the Green family. While it has no Biblical basis, it does riff on Andrew Carnegie's Gospel of Wealth and has a number of parallels in the so-called Effective Altruism movement.

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#197
post #189
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > The fifth of six children fathered by Rev. Walter Green, God has always been at the forefront of Hobby Lobby patriarch David Green’s life. > Imagine having a family of ordinary children, plus God. And yes, the remainder of the article confirms the promise of this gaffe. Imagine not being able to parse a sentence. > > This begs an obvious question. > That's not what "begging the question" actually means. If you're…

>> Imagine having a family of ordinary children, plus God. And yes, the remainder of the article confirms the promise of this gaffe. > Imagine not being able to parse a sentence. It was up to the author to parse the sentence in advance of posting it. And competent writers don't invite such obvious double meanings -- they undermine the value of the essay. >> That's not what "begging the question" actually means. > If…

> It was up to the author to parse the sentence in advance of posting it. And competent writers don't invite such obvious double meanings -- they undermine the value of the essay.

The author? She can't do it for the reader; to my knowledge it's a correct sentence, just a a bit verbose.

> Expressions change over time, but normally by consensus. Without consensus, one is entitled to wonder whether the writer knows what the expression means.

Yes, you sure had trouble understanding it...

> Some writers don't need a spell checker. Others require it.

Some are trying to win a Pulitzer, others just to write a substack article.

Let's not pretend those were the reason why you didn't like the article, come on.

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hesitate to write off the severity of their difference to any Christianity you might recognize. The Green family wields a personal antinomianist doctrine reserved for the rich and powerful. Under their brand of Creationism, God has given them literal dominion over the world (Genesis 1:26-31), and not exercising that, whether or not in defiance of conflicting secular laws, would be a denial of the mission of their…

I think there is a little difference in culpability between directly sending money or traveling to a terror cell vs contacting buyers to purchase artifacts. If my local church was attempting to support African businesses by purchasing goods but the buyer was getting good from a factory that used slave labor, I would expect the FBI to come talk to the church as well.

This is the same logic that got DJI a ban from some proposed invisible link to Uyghur oppression.

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#199
post #197
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Imagine having a family of ordinary children, plus God. And yes, the remainder of the article confirms the promise of this gaffe. > Imagine not being able to parse a sentence. It was up to the author to parse the sentence in advance of posting it. And competent writers don't invite such obvious double meanings -- they undermine the value of the essay. >> That's not what "begging the question" actually means. > If…

> It was up to the author to parse the sentence in advance of posting it. And competent writers don't invite such obvious double meanings -- they undermine the value of the essay. The author? She can't do it for the reader; to my knowledge it's a correct sentence, just a a bit verbose. > Expressions change over time, but normally by consensus. Without consensus, one is entitled to wonder whether the writer knows what…

> The author? It can't do it for the reader; to my knowledge it's a correct sentence, just a a bit verbose.

It contains a classic beginner's error -- object ambiguity. Rather funny in this specific case.

> Yes, you sure had trouble understanding it, come on.

Not at all -- but it was abundantly clear that the author didn't take the time to unambiguously identify the sentence's object, with a humorous outcome.

> Some are trying to win a Pulitzer, others just to write a substack article.

This is called a "false choice". But I think you know that. A vast middle ground lives between those extremes.

> Let's not pretend those were the reason why you didn't like the article, come on.

I have no stake in the article's topic, only its form. For all I know, these people are acting to protect irreplaceable historical artifacts. Just for the sake of argument.

I just noticed something. The article's title -- "The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist" -- is itself a classic example of begging the question, because it presumes the truth of what it should be proving.

Re: The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hesitate to write off the severity of their difference to any Christianity you might recognize. The Green family wields a personal antinomianist doctrine reserved for the rich and powerful. Under their brand of Creationism, God has given them literal dominion over the world (Genesis 1:26-31), and not exercising that, whether or not in defiance of conflicting secular laws, would be a denial of the mission of their…

I think there is a little difference in culpability between directly sending money or traveling to a terror cell vs contacting buyers to purchase artifacts. If my local church was attempting to support African businesses by purchasing goods but the buyer was getting good from a factory that used slave labor, I would expect the FBI to come talk to the church as well.

The article mentions the family had tens of thousands of looted artifacts (there's no legal way to acquire them) and attempted to evade detection by customs by mislabeling them. They knew what they were doing, were told to stop, and they kept doing it.

If you discovered the clergy or elders in your church wanted a supply of something so badly that they secretly used your tithe or offertory to fund a warlord who then enslaved people to acquire it for them, how would you feel? That's a closer equivalent of what Hobby Lobby did to their customers.

Unrelated, but how would you summarize the plot of Raiders of the Lost Ark?

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