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The Burnout Machine

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#191

Post by lurking_swe »

__loam wrote: post #151
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

Incredible that people like you will watch the industry lay off hundreds of thousands of workers then turn around and make this argument. It's like devs are allergic to any semblance of labor solidarity.

i sympathize but this is a myopic view. zoom out 5, 10, 20 years. It’s pretty clear the parent is correct. Historically anyway.

But what’s happening post covid is a mess and we’ll see how the future looks for us in tech.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#192

Post by daedrdev »

acuozzo wrote: post #173
JimTheMan wrote: post #134

These articles about work conditions in tech feel profoundly out of touch with the rest of the world. It's like reading a gazette from Mary Antoinette talking about how tough her life was (pre-revolution..) The rest of the world outside of tech, looks at tech and sees a bunch of very overpaid developers with quite cushy perks... Like sure, it would be great to unionise... But if tech workers don't acknowledge their p…

> rest of the world outside of tech, looks at tech and sees a bunch of very overpaid developers They most certainly do, but it says A LOT more about them that they see developers as overpaid rather than themselves as underpaid. Propaganda from the owners of capital has worked well by ensuring that anyone relying on an income is more likely to look left, right, and strike down than to ever consider looking up.

Most businesses are not very profitable at all. Like 5-10% margin. If you took all their profits and made them wages (ignoring the consequences), thats not a crazy amount of pay increase especially compared to what tech workers make.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#193

Post by dxxth »

jimbokun wrote: post #157
legitster wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels it lacks perspective with virtually any other occupations. On one hand, misery and happiness are relative. On the other hand, try telling a construction worker how hard our lives are sitting in chairs clicking buttons. My dad used to have to do things like hot tar roofing to pay the bills. So I still consider it a blessing to get to work in software. I thi…

I think burnout is Cool Hand Luke being forced to dig a ditch and fill it back up again, for days. It’s putting in effort without seeing anything concrete to show for it. If you tar a roof, you can see a roof that will keep out the rain. If you cook a meal, you see someone who was hungry but now full. A lot of jobs don’t have that feedback loop.

I think too, is the cost of taking work home.

Many jobs, including construction, service jobs, even many medical jobs, do not require even the thought of work outside of working hours.

Anecdotally many in these positions that I am friends with will attest that it's great to get off work and pretend work didn't happen and go on with their real life, because they don't have deadlines or projects to stress over, arduous performance reviews, or extensive office politicking and empire-building.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#194

Post by jacobgkau »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said.

However, your examples made me think.

> In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better than the average 9-5 job.

Can you? Can everyone? I've job hunted before and known many more people who've taken way longer than me to find a position at all, in several different locations throughout the country (not coastal metropolises). You're kind of suggesting that unemployment isn't an issue in the industry, which is a pretty blanketed take.

> Or you can freelance a dozen hours a week and live in a remote cottage.

Can you meet friends while living in a remote cottage? Can you raise kids well in a remote cottage? (Does the remote cottage even have internet?) This one is technically true, but ignores many of the reasons most people work/live in the first place. I say that as someone who's considered going that route.

So while I agree software engineers aren't a "victim class" as compared to other industries, I also think using the "it could be worse" excuse to avoid working for better conditions that are totally feasible isn't a great thing to do. The majority of software engineers are middle-class, and when the middle-class is under attack, they're going down with the rest of the ship, not up. Perhaps it'd be better to foster a little more solidarity instead of inviting us vs. them mentality.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#195

Post by roxolotl »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

Both you and this post can be correct. It is the case that being a software dev is a position of relative privilege. It is also the case that many people feel burnt out, the system doesn't support them, and labor solidarity is important. This is a classic trap. Just because your body isn't being abused by the system to the extent that others are doesn't mean that you can't argue and fight against the abuse you are suffering from.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#196

Post by busterarm »

shagie wrote: post #80
wyager wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But tech isn't a blue collar industry, and this is about tech unions.

I'd point to Kickstarter United - https://kickstarterunited.org How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry ( 190 points | Oct 7, 2020 | 369 comments ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711814 Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts ( 179 points | June 17, 2022 | 305 comments ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31780972

Kickstarter only voted 97.6% after absolutely bitter internal conflicts and a semi-forced exodus of people who weren't on board with the plan. The in-fighting was extremely bitter, extremely personal, included death-threats and I know several former Kickstarter employees on both sides of that mess who are in therapy over how that all went down.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#197

Post by _fat_santa »

__loam wrote: post #151
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

Incredible that people like you will watch the industry lay off hundreds of thousands of workers then turn around and make this argument. It's like devs are allergic to any semblance of labor solidarity.

> It's like devs are allergic to any semblance of labor solidarity.

No, it's because we know how good we have it. Yes tech layoffs can be brutal but we all signed up for that. I knew even back in college that tech jobs can be flaky and I was likely to be out on my ass a few times in career. But I took the deal anyways because I can make six figures wearing pajamas in my basement.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#198

Post by __loam »

daedrdev wrote: post #185
brian-armstrong wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? I invite you to read earnings reports from any of the FAANG companies in the last 5 years. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Most people actually don't work at immensely profitable FAANG companies.

And yet they're so massive that them all doing layoffs at the same time despite that profitability has a huge impact on the labor market of the while industry.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#199

Post by bawolff »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

> Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode"

Is it though? People in software seem to be constantly talking about burnout/mental health issues.

Like we need some explanation as to why software has such high pay, flexibility, limited education requirements, and yet not everyone in the world is doing it. High pay is usually a sign the job is compensating for being shitty in other ways.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#200

Post by daedrdev »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #18

Class consciousness is firmly in the zeitgeist: witness season 1 of Severance. There is no going back from this, as once you are disillusioned it is much harder to be re-illusioned. There will be some sort of collective response by white-collar professionals at some point. I think people are ready for change.

I strongly feel that groups within the "classes" often have vast differences that make me question the idea of class consciousness. A well off tech emloyee has interests that align far more with those with wealth than a small business owner who might have interests far more aligned with blue collar workers. And don't even get me started on social differences, like LGBT right etc that divide people.
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