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Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

theintercept.com

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Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#191

Post by bawolff »

mmooss wrote: post #120
shadowgovt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we remove the tech from the story and consider the old "colonial village test": A man walks up and down the street either shouting about, or handing out flyers, that say "We should get together and blockade main street in protest of the illegitimate taxes Congress has passed on our whiskey." Is it legal for the cops to stop him? Probably not. Is it legal for the cops to move their plans around to show up on main s…

> If we remove the tech from the story If we remove the tech from the dropping of the atomic bombs, what's the big deal? You can't remove the tech; it is intrinsic to the issue.

Tech might change scale, but we still had surveilence, secret police, masacares, etc in olden times.

If anything, in olden times many of these types of things were considered normal. As hard as it might feel like it is to see it, we have come a very long way when it comes to morals of wars & state violence. If nothing else at least we mostly feel like its "wrong" now.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#192

Post by nickff »

jackyinger wrote: post #145
Aloisius wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. That doesn't appear to show the same rates between demographics. It appears to show generally more frequent use in men than women, younger than older and until somewhat recently, white than black or hispanic.

The data backs up the grandparent’s post that blacks and Hispanics were disproportionately punished for their use compared to whites.

Not parent or grandparent, but ‘disproportionate’ is different from ‘about the same’; you’re shifting the goalposts.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#193

Post by bawolff »

Am i weird in that this feels kind of normal (im not american)?

Protests should be protected, but i normally assume protestors get permits, and a reasonable police presence is around. Not to intimidate anyone, but just to make sure nobody gets too rowdy, keep protestors and counter-protestors away from each other (to prevent violence), provide aid if anyone gets hurt (big masses of people is always a trample risk). Otherwise just do normal crowd control sort of things.

If they were surveiling individuals who participated afterwards, maybe that would be something, but it seems like (according to the article) all they were doing was keeping track of when protests were happening.

Protests are not private events. They are literally the most non-private event possible. That is the entire point. I dont think there is any reasonable expectation of privacy in terms of time&date of demonstrations.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#194

Post by bawolff »

unethical_ban wrote: post #13
jeffbee wrote: post #7

It is not "surveillance" when the cops see your tweets.

Does surveillance need to be covert? Historically, if the police are observing you or your event specifically, that's surveillance.

That said, if you put a classified advert in a newspaper and police read it,i wouldn't call it survelience, and that feels more similar to reading twitter posts.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#195

Post by aprilthird2021 »

bawolff wrote: post #193

Am i weird in that this feels kind of normal (im not american)? Protests should be protected, but i normally assume protestors get permits, and a reasonable police presence is around. Not to intimidate anyone, but just to make sure nobody gets too rowdy, keep protestors and counter-protestors away from each other (to prevent violence), provide aid if anyone gets hurt (big masses of people is always a trample risk). O…

Yeah it's a tool, the use of it will show the issue. For example if they only surveil certain types of protests and not others.

Another worrying element of protest surveillance is the documented practice of sending in provocateurs who commit violence or break stuff or cause problems to allow a pretense for crackdowns.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#196

Post by mmooss »

bawolff wrote: post #191
mmooss wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we remove the tech from the story If we remove the tech from the dropping of the atomic bombs, what's the big deal? You can't remove the tech; it is intrinsic to the issue.

Tech might change scale, but we still had surveilence, secret police, masacares, etc in olden times. If anything, in olden times many of these types of things were considered normal. As hard as it might feel like it is to see it, we have come a very long way when it comes to morals of wars & state violence. If nothing else at least we mostly feel like its "wrong" now.

I didn't claim otherwise and it's irrelevant to my point, regardless. The point is that you can't exclude technology from the issue - surveillance with modern tech and with pre-industrial tech are very different things. Now you can do almost complete surveillance of the population (just track phones and you know everywhere everyone goes).

(Also, where and when specifically are you talking about? The 1950s US? State intelligence agencies didn't really exist, afaik, before maybe the (20th century?).)

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#197

Post by kristjansson »

nickff wrote: post #192
jackyinger wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data backs up the grandparent’s post that blacks and Hispanics were disproportionately punished for their use compared to whites.

Not parent or grandparent, but ‘disproportionate’ is different from ‘about the same’; you’re shifting the goalposts.

Direction matters? same or _lower_ frequency of use does not seem like 'shifting the goalposts' on the original claim of disproportionate _incarceration_.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#198

Post by kristjansson »

whatshisface wrote: post #63

Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted on: 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate (things like parking violations and music piracy). 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more often. 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average are punished mo…

If there are lost keys everywhere you will actually find some looking under the streetlight. Honest statistical reports may even be written highlighting the frequency of lost-key-findings under streetlights. Credulous readers might begin to suggest that some innate factor of the pooling of their light causes keys to fall exactly within boundaries of their illumination. They might even prefer elected representatives that propose streetlight removal policies, to reduce the scourge of lost keys.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#199

Post by tptacek »

CalChris wrote: post #186
tptacek wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walking down a public street absent some public safety or similar imposition is in fact a Constitutionally protected activity. It is not at all like driving.

No, that is your opinion and not a cite. In fact, the government can regulate your walking with cross walks and traffic lights. Again, why are the police in this case monitoring constitutionally protected activity? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech , or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to a…

You're just wrong. There's a whole line of cases about this.

Walkers and strollers and wanderers may be going to or coming from a burglary. Loafers or loiterers may be "casing" a place for a holdup. Letting one's wife support him is an intra-family matter, and normally of no concern to the police. Yet it may, of course, be the setting for numerous crimes. The difficulty is that these activities are historically part of the amenities of life as we have known them. They are not mentioned in the Constitution or in the Bill of Rights. These unwritten amenities have been, in part, responsible for giving our people the feeling of independence and self-confidence, the feeling of creativity. These amenities have dignified the right of dissent, and have honored the right to be nonconformists and the right to defy submissiveness. They have encouraged lives of high spirits, rather than hushed, suffocating silence.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#200

Post by decremental »

Centigonal wrote: post #123
coolspot wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate Do you have data backing this claim? For example, homicides (that are not a subject for reporting bias) don’t follow a uniform distribution, so I would expect other crimes to also be non-uniform.

I remember, back when cannabis was illegal in most states, a common argument was that white and black people reported using cannabis at the same rate when surveyed. However, many, many more black people ended up in prison for it. Here is a survey of US youths that supports this premise: https://monitoringthefuture.org/data/panel/demographic-subgr...

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