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Breaking Up with On-Call

reflector.dev

191–200 of 202 posts

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#191
post #62

For me the worst thing about being on-call is not the actual work outside business hours (it’s usually not much), but the potential work: if something happens I need to jump into my laptop within X minutes (changes from company to company, but it’s usually within 10 minutes). This means: I cannot go for a run, I cannot go to the movies, I cannot go for a dinner with family, I cannot even go shopping (shopping mall is…

A 10 minute response is "On the clock", not "on-call". A symptom of the "Do more with less" cancer in tech.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do long(ish) distance running as a hobby - it's not feasible to take a laptop out on a two hour run. If I want to go meet a friend for a drink or food, I have to lug around a backpack, keep an eye on it to make sure it's not stolen. If I wanted to have a beer or wine, I can't because I may need to work at any point. Favourite band is performing? I suppose you could take a backpack and the laptop to the venue, but a…

> If I want to go meet a friend for a drink or food, I have to lug around a backpack, keep an eye on it to make sure it's not stolen. If I wanted to have a beer or wine, I can't because I may need to work at any point. If this is a stated requirement from your employer, talk to a lawyer. This is a common litmus test for whether you need to be paid while on call, even if you aren't actively working. Depending on the j…

Does that apply to salaried/FLSA-exempt workers?

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#193
post #64
post #62

For me the worst thing about being on-call is not the actual work outside business hours (it’s usually not much), but the potential work: if something happens I need to jump into my laptop within X minutes (changes from company to company, but it’s usually within 10 minutes). This means: I cannot go for a run, I cannot go to the movies, I cannot go for a dinner with family, I cannot even go shopping (shopping mall is…

This is why people used to be paid time-and-a-half or even double-time for being on call. Ask your union to demand that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-and-a-half

Are you confusing overtime and on-call?

Nobody's going to pay you 1.5 your hourly rate to just sit and wait until something happens. Is that really a thing?

Now if you are called and spring into action, there may be time-and-a-half, if it's outside of your regular hours.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the code is important enough that it needs to be fixed if it breaks at 03:00, someone needs to be on-call If that someone isn't the dev, things breaking at 03:00 is someone else's problem from the PoV of the dev, and it will likely keep breaking. I've tried at several companies to get dev-teams to prioritise things causing a lot of work for the ops-team, and nothing has worked as well as disbanding the ops team an…

> I've tried at several companies to get dev-teams to prioritise things causing a lot of work for the ops-team, and nothing has worked as well as disbanding the ops team and putting the devs on-call. This is a leadership problem, not a development problem. If stakeholders prioritize resolving production issues and development teams do not address the objectives set forth, then there are bigger problems afoot. > Pain…

It's only a leadership problem if you split the responsibility for the thing so you have A: a team that builds and maintains it and B: someone else who has to wake up at night and fix it.

If A and B are the same people, very little leadership is needed as they are innately motivated, and have direct experience.

> Punitive management policies erode morale and result in retention only of those whom have no better options. See "Price's Law"[0].

It's not punitive management. Someone will have to work when the thing breaks. It can be the people who can fix the problem, or it can be someone else.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#195
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I want to go meet a friend for a drink or food, I have to lug around a backpack, keep an eye on it to make sure it's not stolen. If I wanted to have a beer or wine, I can't because I may need to work at any point. If this is a stated requirement from your employer, talk to a lawyer. This is a common litmus test for whether you need to be paid while on call, even if you aren't actively working. Depending on the j…

Does that apply to salaried/FLSA-exempt workers?

Depends on the jurisdiction, talk to a lawyer to find out.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#196
post #124
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is part of a union and there’s none of that bullshit. However when her employer wanted to reduce costs across the board the union negotiated a shorter working week for everyone instead of a pay rise next year. They voted on it and accepted it with an overwhelming majority.

The union offering "shrinkflation" as the way for the business to cut costs is an interesting framing. Your wife's union associates must hang out with grocery store executives.

The union spoke to its members and asked them what they wanted, negotiated it and voted on the final result.

If that’s your take away from it I don’t know what to tell you.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've tried at several companies to get dev-teams to prioritise things causing a lot of work for the ops-team, and nothing has worked as well as disbanding the ops team and putting the devs on-call. This is a leadership problem, not a development problem. If stakeholders prioritize resolving production issues and development teams do not address the objectives set forth, then there are bigger problems afoot. > Pain…

It's only a leadership problem if you split the responsibility for the thing so you have A: a team that builds and maintains it and B: someone else who has to wake up at night and fix it. If A and B are the same people, very little leadership is needed as they are innately motivated, and have direct experience. > Punitive management policies erode morale and result in retention only of those whom have no better optio…

> It's only a leadership problem if you split the responsibility for the thing so you have A: a team that builds and maintains it and B: someone else who has to wake up at night and fix it.

A couple points come to mind here.

First, there is no reason for any employee to have to "wake up at night and fix it" if the organization staffs SRE's with a "follow the sun" model. Three complementary time zones are ideal, but two can suffice if one is first-shift and the other second shift.

Second and more importantly, splitting responsibility between a "dev team" and an "ops team" is problematic when the two teams do not communicate, coordinate, and assist each other in improving the system. Hence this situation qualifying as a leadership problem.

> If A and B are the same people, very little leadership is needed as they are innately motivated, and have direct experience.

A and B are different jobs, with different responsibilities, with different skills, and different success objectives. Combining the two is a recipe for burnout and/or failure.

>> Punitive management policies erode morale and result in retention only of those whom have no better options. See "Price's Law"[0].

> It's not punitive management. Someone will have to work when the thing breaks.

The statement I quoted was:

  Pain from a problem needs to live where the problem can be fixed.
This is a punitive management policy in and of itself and unquestionably so when combined with the assertion:

  If A and B are the same people, very little leadership is
  needed as they are innately motivated ...
Two additional things to contemplate is categorizing team members as "they" as well as identifying "very little leadership" as a goal to achieve.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody assumes harmful intentions from the author Then what's the issue or purpose? Other than satisfying or inflating some own moral selfimage? That kind of social dynamic appears to be what this kind of things is about most of the time as opposed to preventing mental harm or stopping such issues from (re)occurring. >Knowing this, and insisting on keeping the images is now willfully associating with harmful behavio…

So you're essentially saying: "I don't believe people should try to be nice to each other even in places where it essentially comes for free." I get it, it's impossible to do the right thing all of the time. It's a chore. But very often, it comes for essentially free. Help carry the baby prom down the stairs if the elevator is broken. Tell people their shoelace is open. Change a picture that symbolizes hurt to people…

I think people should be nice to eachother even in places where it doesn't essentially come for free. Offer a helping hand. Take part in a cleanup event. Give to the needy. And if possible I'd say do it without broadcasting your moral status or don't do it just to broadcast.

If you truly wanted to do some microscopic good you could've just used this picture to quickly bring awareness to what happened and could happen again rather than try to relegate the story to the view of those interested in history for the benefit of....

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#199
post #62

For me the worst thing about being on-call is not the actual work outside business hours (it’s usually not much), but the potential work: if something happens I need to jump into my laptop within X minutes (changes from company to company, but it’s usually within 10 minutes). This means: I cannot go for a run, I cannot go to the movies, I cannot go for a dinner with family, I cannot even go shopping (shopping mall is…

I was on-call for over a decade, usually in roles where there was no compensation for working out of hours other than maybe TOIL. We're not talking FAANG gigs here - like £20-50k in the UK stuff. It's amazing how much having to carry an extra phone or making sure your laptop is in your car impacts your day-to-day life. Any social thing you're at could be interrupted at zero notice. Heck, I've taken calls in supermarkets and concert venues.

One place I worked had a 1 in 2 rotation. Every other week on call or weeks back to back if your colleague was on holiday. There was no front-line service screening calls which meant you could be woken several times in one night. All for £30 pcm towards broadband costs.

Most places are more sane than that example but suffer from the same core problem. Follow the sun support is incredibly expensive when compared to putting your existing staff to be on call. Here in the UK, so long as your equivalent hourly rate doesn't drop below national minimum wage and you're opted out of the working time directive (a lot of employers slip an opt-out form into your paperwork implying it's normal to sign it), then it's legal.

Unfortunately I'm yet to find anywhere that on-call operational teams have the clout to get code induced issues high up the priority list outside of cases where they've had to drag developers out of bed at 2am. In my experience that also plays out with getting anything infrastructure based into tech debt budgets. Why focus on fixing problems you don't directly suffer from when you can spend the time on a refactor, integrating a cool new library or spaffing out one more feature in the sprint?

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