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FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

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191–200 of 212 posts

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#191
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A text prediction tool isn’t a person, the data it is trained on is irrelevant to the copyright infringement perpetrated by the end user. They should perform due diligence to prevent liability. Huh what? If a program "predicts" some data that is a derivative work of some copyrighted work (that the end user did not input), then ipso facto the tool itself is a derivative work of that copyrighted work, and illegal to…

If the output of a mathematical model trained on an aggregate of knowledge that contains copyrighted material is derivative and infringing, then ipso facto, all works since the inception of copyright are derivative and infringing. You learned English, math, social studies, science, business, engineering, humanities, from a McGraw Hill textbook? Sorry, all creative works you’ve produced are derivative of your educatio…

> If the output of a mathematical model trained on an aggregate of knowledge that contains copyrighted material is derivative and infringing, then ipso facto, all works since the inception of copyright are derivative and infringing.

I'm not saying every LLM output is necessarily infringing, I'm saying that some are, which means the underlying LLM (considered as a work on its own) must be. If you ask a human to come up with some copy for your magazine ad, they might produce something original, or they might produce something that rips off a copyrighted thing they read. That means that the human themselves must contain enough knowledge of the original to be infringing copyright, if the human was a product you could copy and distribute. It doesn't mean that everything the human produces infringes that copyright.

(Also, humans are capable of original thought of their own - after all, humans created those textbooks in the first place - so even if a human produces something that matches something that was in a textbook, they may have produced it independently. Whereas we know the LLM has read pirated copies of all the textbooks, so that defense is not available)

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those software tools don't generate content the way an LLM does so they aren't particularly relevant. It's more like if I hire a firm to write a book for me and they produce a derivative work. Both of us have a responsibility for guard against that. Unfortunately there is no definitive way to tell if something is sufficiently transformative or not. It's going to come down to the subjective opinion of a court.

Copyright law is pretty clear on commissioned work, you are the holder, if your employee violated copyright and you failed to do your due diligence before publication, then you are responsible. If your employee violated copyright and fraudulently presented the work as original to you then you would seek compensation from them.

> Copyright law is pretty clear on commissioned work, you are the holder, if your employee violated copyright and you failed to do your due diligence before publication, then you are responsible.

No, for commissioned work in the usual sense the person you commissioned from is the copyright holder; you might have them transfer the copyright to you as part of your contract with them but it doesn't happen by default. It is in no way your responsibility to "do due diligence" on something you commissioned from someone, it is their responsibility to produce original work and/or appropriately license anything they based their work on. If your employee violates copyright in the course of working for you then you might be responsible for that, but that's for the same reason that you might be responsible for any other crimes your employee might commit in the course of working for you, not because you have some special copyright-specific responsibility.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's even more suspicious is that these tweets from Elliot Glazer indicate that they are still "developing" the hold-out set, There is nothing suspicious about this and the wording seems to be incorrect. A hold-out set is a percentage of the overall data that is used to test a model. It is just not trained on it. Model developers normally have full access to it. There is nothing inherently wrong with training on…

> The confusion I see here is that people are equating a hold out set to a blind set. That's a set of data to test against that the model developers (and model) cannot see. What on earth? This is from Tamay Besiroglu at Epoch: Regarding training usage: We acknowledge that OpenAI does have access to a large fraction of FrontierMath problems and solutions, with the exception of a unseen-by-OpenAI hold-out set that enab…

Your quote literally says hold-out set.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The confusion I see here is that people are equating a hold out set to a blind set. That's a set of data to test against that the model developers (and model) cannot see. What on earth? This is from Tamay Besiroglu at Epoch: Regarding training usage: We acknowledge that OpenAI does have access to a large fraction of FrontierMath problems and solutions, with the exception of a unseen-by-OpenAI hold-out set that enab…

Your quote literally says hold-out set.

It also literally says "unseen-by-OpenAI".

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#195
post #4

Why do people keep taking OpenAIs marketing spin at face value? This keeps happening, like when they neglected to mention that their most impressive Sora demo involved extensive manual editing/cleanup work because the studio couldn't get Sora to generate what they wanted. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40359425

Because the models have continually matched the quality they claim. Ex. look how much work "very few" has to do in the sibling comment. It's like saying "very few physicists [Einstein/Feynman/Witten]" Its conveniently impossible to falsify the implication that the inverse of "very few" say not positive things. i.e. that the vast majority say negative things You have to go through an incredible level of mental gymnast…

> Because the models have continually matched the quality they claim.

That's very far from true.

"Yes, I know that the HuggingFace arena and coding assistant leaderboards both say that OpenAI's new model is really good, but in practice you should use Claude Sonnet instead" was a meme for good reason, as was "I know the benchmarks show that 4o is just as capable as ChatGPT4 but based on our internal evals it seems much worse". The latter to the extent that they had to use dark UI patterns to hide ChatGPT-4 from their users, because they kept using it, and it cost OpenAI much more than 4o.

OpenAI regularly messes with benchmarks to keep the investor money flowing. Slightly varying the wording of benchmark problems causes a 30% drop in o1 accuracy. That doesn't mean "LLMs don't work" but it does mean that you have to be very sceptical of OpenAI benchmark results when comparing them to other AI labs, and this has been the case for a long time.

The FrontierMath case just shows that they are willing to go much farther with their dishonesty than most people thought.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#196
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and when humans figure out patterns they're allowed to reproduce those as well as they want so long as it's not verbatim, doing so is even considered desirable and a sign of having intelligence No, doing so is considered a sign of not having grasped the material, and is the bane of secondary-level mathematics teachers everywhere. (Because many primary school teachers are satisfied with teaching their pupils lazy al…

> No, doing so is considered a sign of not having grasped the material, and is the bane of secondary-level mathematics teachers everywhere. (Because many primary school teachers are satisfied with teaching their pupils lazy algorithms like "a fraction has the small number on top and the big number on the bottom", instead of encouraging them to discover the actual mathematics behind the rote arithmetic they do in scho…

> You seem to be conflating "simple pattern" with the more general concept of "patterns". What LLMs do is not limited to simple patterns.

There's no mechanism for them to get the right patterns – except, perhaps, training on enough step-by-step explanations that they can ape them. They cannot go from a description to enacting a procedure, unless the model has been shaped to contain that procedure: at best, they can translate the problem statement from English to a programming language (subject to all the limitations of their capacity to do that).

> if natural language were as easy as primary school arithmetic, models with these capabilities would have been invented some time around when CD-ROMs started having digital encyclopaedias on them

Systems you could talk to in natural language, that would perform the tasks you instructed them to perform, did exist in that era. They weren't very popular because they weren't very useful (why talk to your computer when you could just invoke the actions directly?), but 1980s technology could do better than Alexa or Siri.

> the training process of which was figuring out patterns that it could then apply

Yes. Training a GPT model on a corpus does not lead to this. Doing RLHF does lead to this, but it mostly only gives you patterns for tricking human users into believing the model's more capable than it actually is. No part of the training process results in the model containing novel skills or approaches (while Stockfish plainly does use novel techniques; and if you look at its training process, you can see where those come from).

> apparently the LLM better understood you than I, a native English speaker.

No, it did both interpretations. That's what it's been trained to do, by the RLHF you mentioned earlier. Blatt out enough nonsense, and the user will cherrypick the part they think answers the question, and ascribe that discriminating ability to the computer system (when it actually exists inside their own mind).

> You think it's had no examples of counting?

No. I think it cannot complete the task I described. Feel free to reword the task, but I would be surprised if even a prompt describing an effective procedure would allow the model to do this.

> but have they just been taught to do a good job of anthropomorphising themselves

That one. It's a classic failure mode of RLHF – one described in the original RLHF paper, actually – which OpenAI have packaged up and sold as a feature.

> And also by having learned the patterns necessary to translate that into code?

Kinda? This is more to do with its innate ability to translate – although using a transformer for next-token-prediction is not a good way to get high-quality translation ability. For many tasks, it can reproduce (customised) boilerplate, but only where our tools and libraries are so deficient as to require boilerplate: for proper stuff like this puzzle of mine, ChatGPT's "programming ability" is poor.

> but that does not seem to be the argument you are making?

It sort of was. Most humans are capable of being given a description of the axioms of some mathematical structures, and a basic procedure for generating examples of members of a structure, and bootstrapping a decent grasp of mathematics from that. However, nobody does this, because it's really slow: you need to develop tools of thought as skills, which we learn by doing, and there's no point slowly and by brute-force devising examples for yourself (so you can practice those skills) when you can let an expert produce those examples for you.

Again, you've not really read what I've written. However, your failure mode is human: you took what I said, and came up with a similar concept (one close enough that you only took three paragraphs to work your way back to my point). ChatGPT would take a concept that can be represented using similar words: not at all the same thing.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote literally says hold-out set.

It also literally says "unseen-by-OpenAI".

Curious why you would be responding on an old post. Are you an alt account?

Your comment doesn't contradict what I said.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#198
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more suspicious is that these tweets from Elliot Glazer indicate that they are still "developing" the hold-out set, even though elsewhere Epoch AI strongly implied this already existed: https://xcancel.com/ElliotGlazer/status/1880809468616950187 It seems to me that o3's 25% benchmark score is 100% data contamination.

> I just saw Sam Altman speak at YCNYC and I was impressed. I have never actually met him or heard him speak before Monday, but one of his stories really stuck out and went something like this: > "We were trying to get a big client for weeks, and they said no and went with a competitor. The competitor already had a terms sheet from the company were we trying to sign up. It was real serious. > We were devastated, but…

This sort of "adjusting the truth" is widespread in business. It's not OK, but people should not be shocked by this.

Also, if marks want to be so gullible, it's on them. It's your money and YOUR due diligence.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are mostly right. but seeing almost perfectly reconstructed images from training set it's obvious model -can- memorize samples. in this case it would reproduce the answers too close to the original to be just 'accidental'. should be easy to test. My guess samples could be used to find good enough stopping point for o1, o3 models. which is hardcoded.

The subtlety here is that an almost-memorized picture of a lady is the same picture with a few artifacts, and an almost-memorized NYT article is the same article with a few words changed, but an almost-memorized computation or proof is likely to be plain wrong. So even if OpenAI's benchmark was data contamination (as I suspect) it still says something about o1's abilities to execute a given problem-solving strategy w…

> but an almost-memorized computation or proof is likely to be plain wrong

hard to tell. never seen anyone trying it. model may almost-memorize and then fill the gaps at inference time as it's still doing some 'thinking'. But the main idea here is that there is a risk that model will spill out pieces of training data. OAI likely would not risk it at $100B++ valuation.

Re: FrontierMath was funded by OpenAI

#200
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright law is pretty clear on commissioned work, you are the holder, if your employee violated copyright and you failed to do your due diligence before publication, then you are responsible. If your employee violated copyright and fraudulently presented the work as original to you then you would seek compensation from them.

> Copyright law is pretty clear on commissioned work, you are the holder, if your employee violated copyright and you failed to do your due diligence before publication, then you are responsible. No, for commissioned work in the usual sense the person you commissioned from is the copyright holder; you might have them transfer the copyright to you as part of your contract with them but it doesn't happen by default. It…

This is a common misconception.

You mean the author. The creator of a commissioned work is the author under copyright law, the owner or copyright “holder” is the commissioner of the work or employer of the employee that created the work as a part of their job.

The author may contractually retain copyright ownership per written agreement prior to creation, but this is not the default condition for commissioned, “specially ordered”, works, or works created by an employee in the process of their employment.

The only way an employer/commissioner would be responsible (vicarious liability) for copyright infringement of a commissioned work or work produced by an employee would be if you instructed them to do so or published the work without performing the duty of due diligence to ensure originality.

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