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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#191

Post by potato3732842 »

RC_ITR wrote: post #167
afhsrtjwrtj wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.

On a green arrow turn, drivers are looking to where they are going. Legally crossing pedestrians are in that cross walk where the driver is looking. With right on red, the driver is also looking to where they are going, but legally crossing pedestrians are not there, they are directly in front of the car. The riskiest thing for a pedestrian is approaching a right on red car from the left, because the driver is simply…

The big problem with right on red is that it perfectly synchronizes them to hit each other.

Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. The street is busy so the driver can't turn right on the red and the pedestrian isn't gonna just walk against the signal into the traffic. Cross traffic lets up, either because of a big gap or because the light has cycled to red for the cross traffic. The conditions that both parties require before making their move have just been satisfied at the same time. The pedestrian walks and the driver turns, leading to inevitable conflict. If both the driver and the pedestrian are in a hurry and trying to shoot a gap in traffic and go quickly there can be no time for either party to avoid the accident.

Edit: The above example is crosswalks only, no dedicated pedestrian signals.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#192

Post by cortesoft »

addicted wrote: post #113
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article says that the street design causes drivers to speed up and makes the intersections unsafe. Instead of drivers always stopping, or at the very least slowing down, when approaching the intersection, the new street design leads to drivers speeding up when approaching the intersection. This is bad design for pedestrians irrespective of wh…

The video and article specifically said these cars “ran the red light”, which they absolutely did not do.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#193

Post by NegativeLatency »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #135
inetknght wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedestrians rightfully expect safe walking and biking infrastructure. Not everyone can drive. Most of those who can't drive also cannot afford a taxi or rideshare. Many of them also do not have friends or family who can get them where they need to go, and reliance on others is extremely demoralizing to independence. That says nothing of the carbon cost in fuel, the microparticle cost in tire and brake dust, or other…

> Not everyone can drive Not everyone can afford to live in an area of the city where they don't have to drive places, either.

Which is exactly why we should build and design communities to have good transit.

When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#194

Post by toast0 »

runako wrote: post #67
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

Freeze frame: https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh > the stop lines are out of frame Is the car in the freeze frame in a legal position given the red light? It would appear not.

There's no way to know from a single frame. We would need to know the sequence of events.

It's not against California vehicle code to be in an intersection when the light is red. It's not even necessarily against vehicle code to be in an intersection when the light is red for you and green for perpindicular traffic (although it's an imminent hazard, so you better have a good reason).

To show a red light violation, you need a datestamped image showing the vehicle behind the stop line with a red light showing, and a near in time image of it in the intersection on red, and probably another one to show that it didn't make an allowed right on red. Really, you also need evidence that the red light was steady, and not a flashing red light which would indicate four way stop and the driver could proceed after stopping. Typically, you wouldn't see red showing on both directions at the same time in a flashing red situation, but cameras are fickle.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#195

Post by Tade0 »

rcpt wrote: post #7
alkonaut wrote: post #5

Knew before I clicked: it's a flat 4-way intersection of two large-ish streets where there is ample space for something else. Hint: draw a small circle in the middle of the intersection and take down the damn stop signs.

Are you talking about roundabouts? Those are a nightmare for pedestrians

How so?

Both as a pedestrian and driver I prefer roundabouts as they force drivers to slow down to non-lethal speeds and there's typically a one car length of road between the turn and pedestrian crossing, so the cars are already going straight when they cross it.

The only road users who don't mix well with roundabouts are cyclists on cycling lanes, as they get in and out of view too fast.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#196

Post by dleslie »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #95
dleslie wrote: post #13

> Why don’t lights ever sit idle with the pedestrian crossing on and the cars must wait? The author knows the answer as well as most readers do: because the intersection is being designed with cars in mind, not human beings.

Usually a crossing will instantly switch when the pedestrian button is pressed, if enough time has passed since the last "walk" cycle. Having a stage where walk is enabled when there's no pedestrians around wouldn't much help pedestrians, and would introduce inefficiency in throughput. And obviously, drivers can't press a button, so it makes more sense for controls to be accessible to the pedestrians.

> Having a stage where walk is enabled when there's no pedestrians around wouldn't much help pedestrians, and would introduce inefficiency in throughput

It forces drivers to reduce speed and come to a full stop; dramatically decreasing the likelihood of collisions with pedestrians they did not notice.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#197

Post by CuriousCosmic »

rcpt wrote: post #142
CuriousCosmic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roundabouts aren't perfect but they greatly reduce the speed of traffic at the crossing point (while increasing the overall throughput of the intersection). Without looking up statistics (and I'd love to be proven wrong here), I'd be willing to guess that roundabouts may result in some marginal increase in minor accidents but massively reduces fatalities or accidents that leave the pedestrian in the ICU. Additionally…

With roundabouts drivers only look to the left and don't come to a complete stop. If you're on foot trying to cross from the other direction good luck.

Yep. Hence the appeal of turning the intersection into a roundabout and pulling the stoplights 3-5 cars from the roundabout and only stopping traffic when pedestrians are present (i.e. puffin and pelican crossing style). It gives cars enough time to turn and then halt with a bright red stop light to catch their attention.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#198

Post by doctorpangloss »

avgDev wrote: post #110
runako wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freeze frame: https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh > the stop lines are out of frame Is the car in the freeze frame in a legal position given the red light? It would appear not.

There is another line before. We don't really see the entire intersection.

The author is pissed off about the design of the intersection. If you have to litigate bullshit like this, surely you see, well, the intersection is poorly designed.

You are also litigating whether or not it's legal. A lot of traditions of California driving are legal and really dangerous. My dude, CVC doesn't even apply in a private parking lot for example, so you can accidentally kill somebody in one and legally face no moving violations. "Legal" is not an interesting criteria at all, it's misleading.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#199

Post by sethammons »

HA! I was about to tell my story and checked the article. My story is ONE block away from this intersection.

I used to work a few blocks from this intersection and would walk daily to the train. Crossing the street was daunting, especially when we time changed and it was dark. I started carrying reflective labels on my backback and I wore a strobe light when crossing.

I _still_ had people flipping me off, swerving around me, honking, etc for my audacity to use a crosswalk. Going to remote work probably saved my life.

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