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JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

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Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#191

Post by wink »

surgical_fire wrote: post #148
com2kid wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't overcomplicate things. Whiteboards are way better than even the best of online tools and drawing with a mouse. For that matter, post-it notes on a wall are better than JIRA. At one workplace everyone had glass table so they could draw on with markers. People could literally come up to your desk and you could work through problems together on one end of the table. The best online tools are garbage compared to ph…

> Don't overcomplicate things. Whiteboards are way better than even the best of online tools and drawing with a mouse. I'll never understand this. All my whiteboard diagrams look like shit. My drawing skills suck, my writing is nearly illegible. Most online tools have excellent diagram shapes, nice and customizable arrows, good templates, etc. I can make nice diagrams much faster on any of those than in a real whiteb…

I'll go one further - whiteboards rock and post-its on a wall can go die in a fire. Unless they actually stick (they won't) and don't curl up (they won't) and you have coworker with a perfectly legible handwritign (you won't) and a good pen (you won't) and standing close ot it (you won't) - you won't see anything.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#192

Post by teddyh »

bko wrote: post #121
teddyh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is extremely generous of you to assume that those who push for RTO have the company’s interest in mind.

Okay, so what's the point? Just to piss of employees and waste money on real-estate and snacks?

Some people become bosses and managers because they like to boss people around. When they’re not physically around other people who are their subordinates, they can’t scratch their itch. More generously, some people have built their whole management style on watching people around the office and get a feel for what’s going on. And if they can’t see someone, they assume that that person is hiding somewhere in order to slack off. Now imagine this person a few years ago in a company which went all work-from-home. This person would want cameras on all employees during work hours, and constant meetings, to to get that same feeling that they can get a sense of what is going on. This same person would naturally advocate to RTO as soon as possible, could not clearly articulate why, but would fall back on their managerial authority to get it done.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#193

Post by gilbetron »

com2kid wrote: post #114
intended wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever thought of why? Just ‘magic’, is an open doorway for bias and unreliable memory to enter and influence the conversation. Is it perhaps that there are specific people, who are doing the ideation, or are particularly good at helping you think? Or is it anyone and everyone? If it’s anyone, then is it a social / biological quirk? Is it something else? For everyone reading, this is worth reflecting upon, if…

Don't overcomplicate things. Whiteboards are way better than even the best of online tools and drawing with a mouse. For that matter, post-it notes on a wall are better than JIRA. At one workplace everyone had glass table so they could draw on with markers. People could literally come up to your desk and you could work through problems together on one end of the table. The best online tools are garbage compared to ph…

This is utterly untrue. I work remotely for a large (8000+) company and when I go into the office, and I've been paying close attention, I've seen precisely zero white-boarding happening in the past 3 years. In fact, when people need to white board they reach for their laptop because they can save the information in a bette format, and others can add to it in the future. Excalidraw is a fantastic whiteboarding tool that has taken over the majority of diagramming where I work.

Post-it notes are not something I've seen used except for random sessions usually run by a consultant. JIRA sucks except for support issues, but most everyone just uses a google doc or spreadsheet and moves on with life.

Beyond that, we are just getting started with remote work, the tools will improve, not so with physical space tools.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#194

Post by gilbetron »

bko wrote: post #34
TrackerFF wrote: post #4

I think RTO mandates will be the straw that broke the camel's back, for a lot of Americans. Workers in sectors that previously wouldn't even think about unionizing, are now having serious discussions. Going back to commutes, wasting time, for no obvious reason - yeah, that did wake up people. EDIT: I'm talking about rigid 5 days a week RTO policy. As other have pointed out, having a flexible WFH policy is often "good…

So why do companies insist? If it has no meaningful impact on productivity, and workers don't like it (including a lot of managers), why push it? That's why I believe that companies have some evidence (or belief) that work from home employees are not as productive, enough so to wage this political battle and pay loads in office expenses.

Soft layoffs to suppress wages, many of the C-Suite have a lot of money in commercial real estate (personal investements) - like a lot, management class are people skilled in face-to-face interactions and Remote work disrupts that. If you read the literature about Remote vs In Office work, it generally leans to Remote seeming a bit more productive. There are arguments both way, and anyone honest with themselves see that it is a complex issue with no clear winner.

In office work is more social and fun, that's for sure. But I've heard many VP+ managers comment, "Yeah, I'm WFH today because I need to focus and gets some things done."

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#195

Post by anthonygd »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #105
999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

There is no universal answer to RTO vs WFH. What is abhorrent is employers changing these terms as if they're trivial. We probably need legal protections treating swapping workplace requirements as requiring someone to relocate or accept lower pay. > If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York You really don't see the value of New York beyond its office buildings? > it's a big clu…

I agree with most of what you wrote, but not the implication that NYC value is obvious.

>You really don't see the value of New York beyond its office buildings?

I like to visit NYC a couple times a year, but absolutely don't want to live there. If the number of people who physically work there goes down, so will the reasons it's nice to visit.

I don't think I can properly explain my thought process here, but I do think of big cities as anachronistic and little inhuman. All those nice things in a city depend on a large number of lower income people being forced to live there by economic opportunity. That's not necessarily bad but frequently lower income residents don't get to enjoy the services they provide.

I say anachronistic because as people increase in economic freedom, their desires adjust and they frequently move, e.g. everything else being equal people will choose a 700 sq.ft. apartment over a 180 sq.ft. apartment. If the ratio of high income to low income residents shifts too far in either direction, cities go through a painful re-balancing process that may or may not land on it being good or pleasant (by some subjective standards) place afterwards.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#196

Post by anthonygd »

nunez wrote: post #147
999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

> If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. Who's going to willingly pay $6,000 for an apartment, ride the trains for over an hour a day, if you can just sit at home in a much cheaper city . Yeah, but that's the heart of the problem here. The suburbs that many flocked to when WFH became acceptable are largely subsidized by city income. Cities are largely funded by employers pay…

> What of the people whose jobs aren't WFH compatible? "They get what they get?"

What's your proposal here? Should I be forced into the office because it increases the chances I'll buy coffee instead of making it at home?

Macro economic changes are always painful. This is a gross simplification, but cities exist because of an economic network effect based on proximity. Network effects tend to be somewhat stable because they tend to change slowly, but they do change.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#197

Post by senordevnyc »

riskable wrote: post #103
dowager_dan99 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait - how can you say remote is comparable with in-office, then tell me a work from home mother is going to look after her 6-yr-old while doing her job and not split her attention & efforts?

Oh give it up. Very few jobs require 100% attention. At my job I'm on the phone at least half of every day and on 70% of those calls I only need at most 10% of my attention. The rest of the time I'm going through emails, filling out endless bureaucratic forms/documents, doing mandatory training, and every now and again I get to actually write some code (more likely: reviewing PRs), LOL! My performance reviews are alw…

I could easily watch a 6yo and do my job at the same time.

I have a pretty chill WFH tech job at the staff level, and a pretty easygoing child, and this sounds like the kind of thing no one who has been a parent would say. My daughter was six during the pandemic when she and her mother and I were all stuck at home, the two of us trying to split our time between watching her and working our jobs, and it was hell.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#198

Post by SirMaster »

nunez wrote: post #149
SirMaster wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe you aren't a culture fit for that employer / office? My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Just sitting at home working, never interacting with people in person sounds really dull and boring and cold to me. I had to do that in 2020 and I hated it. Productivity is nice, but IMO it's not all about productivity. As a worker I value…

I'm with you. WFH is insanely isolating, and interacting via Slack/Zoom doesn't cut it for me. I hate that it's either full RTO or full WFH at so many places.

Yes, I would agree a hybrid approach is ideal too.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#199

Post by SirMaster »

spokaneplumb wrote: post #139
SirMaster wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe you aren't a culture fit for that employer / office? My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Just sitting at home working, never interacting with people in person sounds really dull and boring and cold to me. I had to do that in 2020 and I hated it. Productivity is nice, but IMO it's not all about productivity. As a worker I value…

> My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Me too! If we had free teleporters I'd probably go into the office for at least half my work day, just about every day, voluntarily. ... I don't like it enough to pay about 15 days per year, every year (5 hours commuting per week, times 50 weeks, divided by 16 waking hours per day[1]), hundreds of do…

I mean, I am biased because my commute by car is 10 minutes and there's barely any traffic. But that was also by choice. I chose to locate myself close to the office like that, because I like working in the office at least a lot of the time, and I hate long commutes too. So I sought out and made happen a situation that was to my preferences.

I live in a suburb and work at a company that is in the suburbs. It's a manufacturing company, but they need software developers all the same.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like a bit of an outlier. I arrange my life for fun and convenience and joy. I don't try to maximize money at the expense of those things. Making say 20% more but having a long commute or working in an office that I don't enjoy being in is not worth it to me because time is money, and my day to day joy and happiness are more important to me than a little more money as well.

People seem so unhappy all the time. I just don't get it. I go for what makes me happy and it seems to work great for me.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#200

Post by intended »

iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #188
intended wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RTO is studied and found to be equal to, or less efficient and profitable than, hybrid. My guess is that RTO mandates act as a lay off.

But even if that is true, why would the companies feel comfortable losing their most competent workforce ( because those are the ones, who can pick up their toys and leave in US )? I was in corporate way too long and I know a lot can be done with warm bodies, but some of the stuff on the horizon will require people with at least some institutional knowledge that this lay off would generate. Unless, and I do mean unle…

there was an article shared here on HN which was great about this. It talked about how we often reverse logic behavior, and assume firms will be making the optimal choices.

We dont know. Ive gone through at least 3 research papers, all of which come to the same conclusion, hybrid outperforms RTO. Whatever decision is being made, its not based on the economic evidence. We will find out eventually.

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