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Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

turso.tech

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Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#191

Post by w4 »

znpy wrote: post #169
jasode wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is going to sound pedantic, but SQLite is not Open Source. It's Public Domain. Well, there are 2 different modes of communication: (1) official language-lawyer pedantic communication: "open source" != "public domain" (2) conversational casual chitchat : "open source" includes "public domain" Yes, the SQLite home page does say "public domain" . However, when people interview SQLite create, Richard Hipp, he himse…

> (2) conversational casual chitchat : "open source" includes "public domain" it's wrong though. like, can't be more wrong than that. you can't do whatever you want with open source software, the license tells what you can and cannot do. with public domain software you can do most things.

Open source means just that: that the source is open. The OSI and co. re-defining the term to suit their ideological preferences doesn’t really change that. SQLite is open source, even if it’s not Open Source.

Edit: FSF should have been OSI, I think. Fixed.

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#192

Post by chasil »

apitman wrote: post #151
chasil wrote: post #136

I am assuming that DO-178B certification for the Rust variant is not on the table. https://www.sqlite.org/hirely.html https://www.sqlite.org/qmplan.html https://www.sqlite.org/th3.html The name "Limbo" is also used by a post-C/UNIX language from AT&T for the Inferno operating system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(programming_language)

Is sqlite DO-178B certified? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18039303

Interesting, thanks for pointing that out.

If there was a solid certification, it would likely be for a specific version.

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#193

Post by cozzyd »

durandal1 wrote: post #85

20% faster for some operations now, but with only a small subset of SQL implemented. Sound like making it as fast as SQLite will be hard with full compatibility given that I expect a lot more branching etc? https://github.com/tursodatabase/limbo/blob/main/COMPAT.md

Not as fast as /dev/null

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#194

Post by PenisBanana »

jasode wrote: post #111
bruce511 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The SQLite3 business model is that SQLite3 is open source This is going to sound pedantic, but SQLite is not Open Source. It's Public Domain. The distinction is subtle, but it is important.

>This is going to sound pedantic, but SQLite is not Open Source. It's Public Domain. Well, there are 2 different modes of communication: (1) official language-lawyer pedantic communication: "open source" != "public domain" (2) conversational casual chitchat : "open source" includes "public domain" Yes, the SQLite home page does say "public domain" . However, when people interview SQLite create, Richard Hipp, he himse…

> conversational casual chitchat : "open source" includes "public domain"

No. What are you talking about? They are not related... other than for people virtually completely new to, well, open source.

You are also completely confused, here, too:

> Yes, the SQLite home page does say "public domain". However, when people interview SQLite create, Richard Hipp, he himself calls it "open source". He also doesn't correct others when they also call it "open source".

They are different things. A project can be both; a person can talk about these two aspects of one project.

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#195

Post by pornel »

fweimer wrote: post #119
cryptonector wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my take when LibSQL was announced. And it still is and would be my take if LibSQL remains C-coded. But a Rust-coded rewrite of SQLite3 or LibSQL is a different story. The SQLite3 business model is that SQLite3 is open source but the best test suite for it is proprietary, and they don't accept contributions to any of either. This incentivizes anyone who needs support and/or new features in SQLite3 to join the…

Bugs are fixed along with regression tests. Here's a recent example: https://www.sqlite.org/src/info/289daf6cee39625e As far as I can see, these tests come with the same public domain dedication as the rest of the code. You may be referring to the TH3 tests ( https://sqlite.org/th3.html ). The main goal (100% branch coverage, 100% MC/DC) would not be achievable for a Rust implementation (or at least an idiomatic Rust…

sqlite also has some runtime checks that are expected to be always true or always false, and solves that by using a custom macro that removes these branches during branch coverage test.

The same would be possible in Rust. Everything that could panic has a non-panicking alternative, and you could conditionally insert `unreachable_unchecked()` to error handling branches to remove them. That wouldn't be most idiomatic, but SQLite's solution is also a custom one.

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#196

Post by rcxdude »

PenisBanana wrote: post #194
jasode wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is going to sound pedantic, but SQLite is not Open Source. It's Public Domain. Well, there are 2 different modes of communication: (1) official language-lawyer pedantic communication: "open source" != "public domain" (2) conversational casual chitchat : "open source" includes "public domain" Yes, the SQLite home page does say "public domain" . However, when people interview SQLite create, Richard Hipp, he himse…

> conversational casual chitchat : "open source" includes "public domain" No. What are you talking about? They are not related... other than for people virtually completely new to, well, open source. You are also completely confused, here, too: > Yes, the SQLite home page does say "public domain". However, when people interview SQLite create, Richard Hipp, he himself calls it "open source". He also doesn't correct ot…

This quickly gets into the details of definitions, but I think by most people's definitions of 'open source', something that is 'public domain' qualifies as such (see also 'source available' or 'copyleft/free software', one of which is not quite open source and the other is a more restrictive kind of open source. 'permissive' licenses like MIT and similar are closer to public domain but are different to varying degrees of technicality: one of the main problems with 'public domain' is that it's not universally accepted that there's any means to deliberately place a copyrightable work into it, so something like sqlite where the authors are not long dead is not actually public domain according to many jusrisdictions)

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#198

Post by Rendello »

callingbull wrote: post #185
bruce511 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The SQLite3 business model is that SQLite3 is open source This is going to sound pedantic, but SQLite is not Open Source. It's Public Domain. The distinction is subtle, but it is important.

> It's Public Domain. Is it though? The website does say "All of the code and documentation in SQLite has been dedicated to the public domain by the authors" but copyright law has no exception for "dedications" to the public domain. At best the authors are estopped from bringing suit but even that is unclear.

Companies can buy licences if they're uncomfortable with the Public Domain dedication:

[quote]

Licenses are available to satisfy the following needs:

    * You want indemnity against claims of copyright infringement.
    * You are using SQLite in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the public domain.
    * You are using SQLite in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the right of authors to dedicate their work to the public domain.
    * You want to hold a tangible legal document as evidence that you have the legal right to use and distribute SQLite.
    * Your legal department tells you that you have to purchase a license.
[end quote]

https://www.sqlite.org/purchase/license

Re: Limbo: A complete rewrite of SQLite in Rust

#200

Post by callingbull »

Rendello wrote: post #198
callingbull wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's Public Domain. Is it though? The website does say "All of the code and documentation in SQLite has been dedicated to the public domain by the authors" but copyright law has no exception for "dedications" to the public domain. At best the authors are estopped from bringing suit but even that is unclear.

Companies can buy licences if they're uncomfortable with the Public Domain dedication: [quote] Licenses are available to satisfy the following needs: * You want indemnity against claims of copyright infringement. * You are using SQLite in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the public domain. * You are using SQLite in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the right of authors to dedicate their work to the public…

They could have CC0 licensed the code or they could have said they would not enforce their copyright. They did neither. SQLite is closed source. The "dedication" (which has no legal effect, what does it even mean?) encourages widespread adoption and big players are spooked into paying for a license (or "warranty of title"). That's quite a strategy.
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