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A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

bicycledutch.wordpress.com

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Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#191

Post by jrslv »

Very interesting article. After 12 years of almost daily cycling in the Netherlands, I recently started driving a car as well. I always appreciated the Dutch civil infrastructure, and this new experience only adds to my admiration.

Compared to other European countries, driving in NL definitely requires extra attention. There are many small & vulnerable participants sharing the space, moving in different directions with much less inertia than cars. On the other hand there are plenty of buffer zones, the lanes are cleverly organised and clearly marked, and there's 30 kmh (18 mph) limit in most streets in the city. A smaller car with great visibility is really useful here.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#192

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #91

I find bikelanes that are integrated with sidewalks incredibly dangerous and give a false sense of safety. Bikes hitting pedestrians (ex: children wandering out on to the bikelane) is a much larger safety concern than bikes being hit by cars. Taipei uses the sidewalk model and I recommend never using them I find the Chinese model of bike/scooter lanes w/ barriers integrated into the main road a superior model. The ot…

> Bikes hitting pedestrians (ex: children wandering out on to the bikelane) is a much larger safety concern than bikes being hit by cars.

That's blatantly not true. Have you seen any KSI statistics?

Pedestrians are more likely to be killed by a driver mounting the pavement and hitting them than they are by a cyclist. The facts suggest that in a cyclist/pedestrian collision, it's often the cyclist that gets more injured.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#193

Post by sigh_again »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #91

I find bikelanes that are integrated with sidewalks incredibly dangerous and give a false sense of safety. Bikes hitting pedestrians (ex: children wandering out on to the bikelane) is a much larger safety concern than bikes being hit by cars. Taipei uses the sidewalk model and I recommend never using them I find the Chinese model of bike/scooter lanes w/ barriers integrated into the main road a superior model. The ot…

>Bikes hitting pedestrians (ex: children wandering out on to the bikelane) is a much larger safety concern than bikes being hit by cars.

Source ? Here's mine: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/15/684-road-traffic-death...

1199 cyclists killed in 4 years, 658 of these being from collisions with various motor vehicles. 262 pedestrians killed in 4 years, 11 of these being from collisions with bicycles. Before any "oh but there's few deaths but more accidents it's still unsafe": no, it is not.

I know your username sets high expectations, but stop bullshitting and look at facts.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#195

Post by snakeyjake »

isoprophlex wrote: post #131
vanderZwan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also helps that "the car driver is to blame until proven otherwise" is the actual law in the Netherlands, which is motivated precisely because of that power dynamic. Essentially, the responsibility defaults the more dangerous vehicle. (for some reason this always is controversial with a lot of Americans whenever it is brought up in on-line discussions)

Having recently read "Amerikanen Lopen Niet" (Americans Don't Walk), the power dynamic you describe seems to be entirely real. Because a car is essential for economic survival in the USA, it's probably difficult for some to accept alternate realities from the status quo.

Americans will never walk.

Where I live, today's high temperature is lower than the low temperature in Amsterdam.

In August the average low temperature is higher than the average high temperature in Amsterdam.

Nobody, not even the hardiest Dutchman is going to walk or cycle when it is 27C at midnight in the summer and 0C at the warmest in the winter with four months of "Amsterdam weather" sprinkled between summer and winter.

Plus there's geography. My house is 21m above sea level, 3m higher than the highest point in Amsterdam, and I live 500m from the sea at the very beginning of the rollercoaster of hills and valleys the glaciers carved into the landscape here.

To walk or cycle to a store would require several Col du Tourmalet-class hill climbs (that's only a slight exaggeration) along the route.

Everywhere south of me is hotter, everywhere north of me is hillier.

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/map-8pl51/Amsterdam/

Compare Amsterdam to DC a well-known "swamp" in the US that most people would consider one of its flatter cities.

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/map-kfds8/Washington/

Don't be thrown off by the scale: yellow in Amsterdam (of which there is none) is 25m and yellow in DC (of which there is much) is 78m.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#196

Post by exceptione »

snakeyjake wrote: post #195
isoprophlex wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently read "Amerikanen Lopen Niet" (Americans Don't Walk), the power dynamic you describe seems to be entirely real. Because a car is essential for economic survival in the USA, it's probably difficult for some to accept alternate realities from the status quo.

Americans will never walk. Where I live, today's high temperature is lower than the low temperature in Amsterdam. In August the average low temperature is higher than the average high temperature in Amsterdam. Nobody, not even the hardiest Dutchman is going to walk or cycle when it is 27C at midnight in the summer and 0C at the warmest in the winter with four months of "Amsterdam weather" sprinkled between summer and…

27C at night is uncommon, but I can tell you there is no weather that stops Dutch people from walking or biking. It is mind ingrained.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#197

Post by datadrivenangel »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #121
rsynnott wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Ireland, Dublin City Council has mostly gone with lanes which are either on the side of the road (with or without bollards), or entirely separate, whereas South Dublin County Council prefers shared use pavements. The two local authorities are contiguous, so it's all a bit jarring when you go between them. Separately, a national project, Busconnects, is putting in its own bike lanes. Some of these are... interestin…

It's astounding that we can't seem to just copy successful ideas from other countries and then ensure that all the councils etc. adhere to the standards. Of course, it doesn't help that the UK seems to keep producing highly aggressive drivers that want to punish cyclists that dare to use the public roads.

ideas are only one part of a successfully functioning sociotechnical system. The bike intersections won't work if users behave differently (just like how automobile traffic is terrible if you get different driving styles mixing).

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#198

Post by bar000n »

sigh_again wrote: post #193
contrarian1234 wrote: post #91

I find bikelanes that are integrated with sidewalks incredibly dangerous and give a false sense of safety. Bikes hitting pedestrians (ex: children wandering out on to the bikelane) is a much larger safety concern than bikes being hit by cars. Taipei uses the sidewalk model and I recommend never using them I find the Chinese model of bike/scooter lanes w/ barriers integrated into the main road a superior model. The ot…

>Bikes hitting pedestrians (ex: children wandering out on to the bikelane) is a much larger safety concern than bikes being hit by cars. Source ? Here's mine: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/15/684-road-traffic-death... 1199 cyclists killed in 4 years, 658 of these being from collisions with various motor vehicles. 262 pedestrians killed in 4 years, 11 of these being from collisions with bicycles. Before any "oh b…

If a bicycle hits a pedestrian and the pedestrian was on cycling path in The Netherlands, who's fault is it? If the pedestrian gets a broken arm who pays for medical services?

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#199

Post by yread »

eru wrote: post #70

I love the Netherlands, and not just for their livable street design, I just wish they food weren't so bland. They make even German cuisine look adventurous in comparison.

They should also improve the landscape. It's too flat. What happened to the proposal to build a mountain in the North Sea?

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#200

Post by lenlorijn »

snakeyjake wrote: post #195
isoprophlex wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently read "Amerikanen Lopen Niet" (Americans Don't Walk), the power dynamic you describe seems to be entirely real. Because a car is essential for economic survival in the USA, it's probably difficult for some to accept alternate realities from the status quo.

Americans will never walk. Where I live, today's high temperature is lower than the low temperature in Amsterdam. In August the average low temperature is higher than the average high temperature in Amsterdam. Nobody, not even the hardiest Dutchman is going to walk or cycle when it is 27C at midnight in the summer and 0C at the warmest in the winter with four months of "Amsterdam weather" sprinkled between summer and…

Electric bicycles basically solve the hill issue. Dutch people bike in any weather. We have a ton of terrible weather, both hot and cold but mostly wet. Our summer heat might not be very hot, but the summer heat is very humid, it feels hotter than it is.

Also the Netherlands is not the only region where people bike a lot. There are places in Finland for example, with more hills and more extreme weather that have loads of people biking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

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