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Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#191

Post by cthalupa »

Kirby64 wrote: post #60
zemvpferreira wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. I was with you up to here. In my experience it's easy to maintain a huge proportion of your lean tissue during a weight loss diet: Do some resistance training, get some protein, and don't lose weight too quickly. There's no need to go to the extreme of a PSMF - which will still have you lose a bunch of muscle on account of being too big a deficit. If you can kee…

For the average overweight person? I disagree. The average obese person does little to no resistance training, eats very little protein, and wants to lose weight fast so they're not paying for expensive GLP1 drugs for a long period of time. You're asking folks to make three separate changes: start exercising, change their diet to add protein, and use GLP1s to reduce food amount. And reducing food amount already goes…

I'm someone that used to be fit and lifted regularly. Got busy, got lazy, got fat. Tried multiple times to get not-fat after getting fat, and found it to be too difficult for me, despite it not being something I struggled with for many years earlier on in adulthood.

Getting on tirzepatide made it trivially easy for me to get back to a better diet, start exercising, etc. I do have to force myself to have an extra protein shake to hit my macros, though.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#192

Post by cthalupa »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #92
throwup238 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next line of the article after that 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk…

> Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. Lots of amateur body builders can do it. There are whole training guides about how to lose body fat, but maintain as much muscle mass as possible. Granted, they are probably a minority because they have higher discipline and motivation than the average population.

Even pros on high doses of testosterone and multiple AAS lose some muscle mass when preparing for a show.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#193

Post by cthalupa »

hollerith wrote: post #155
wisty wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing glycogen stored in muscle is not a huge issue IMO, as it should come back fast. Stuff that's easy to gain is usually easy to lose and vice versa.

Uh, GP is talking about losing muscle itself, not the glycogen in muscle.

Well, these studies look at FFM, which does include your water weight and glycogen stores, so they do make up a portion of it.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#194

Post by cthalupa »

xk_id wrote: post #183
cthalupa wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I started resistance training 5x a week about a month in on tirzepatide and even with a severely restricted caloric intake (I just can't eat enough), I've gained LBM.

How did you measure the increase in LBM? This requires very advanced technical equipment. My suspicion is that you have noticed an increase in muscle volume and assumed it to be an increase in muscle mass. Those are largely due to water retention and increased blood flow. They revert quite quickly after you stop exercising for about a week.

I am getting regular DEXA scans

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#195

Post by cthalupa »

philipbjorge wrote: post #34
firecall wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, when I was part of a weight loss diet study at my local university I actually gained muscle whilst losing weight. I had multiple full body dexascans during the programme. I didn’t change my exercise routine at all. I wasn’t hitting the gym or doing weights, just my usual basic cardio. And I gained muscle and lost ~10kilos in weight. It wasn’t much muscle, but the amount of muscle was higher than before…

The latest research I’ve pulled suggests that DEXA scans are fairly inaccurate and aren’t a reliable way to measure body composition even for the same person across time. MRI is the gold standard, everything else is pretty loosely goosey. Sorry, no references but this comes up pretty often in the science based lifting communities on Reddit and YouTube if you want to learn more.

https://macrofactorapp.com/body-composition/

Estimates in level of inaccuracy on the high end ranges from ~5% to ~10%

If you see your lean mass going up in DEXA, your muscles are getting larger, and you're getting stronger, particularly across a wide variety of exercises where CNS adaptation can't explain the strength gains, they're likely broadly accurate.

Mine have all tracked quite closely with what I'm seeing in the mirror and what is happening when it comes to the amount of weight I'm moving.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#196

Post by julianeon »

jyscao wrote: post #64

[flagged]

You do have to factor in the (probable) cost of not using Ozempic, aka keeping the pounds on. It may be imprecise, but as an example, if a person was likely to die within 10 years at their current weight, any bad effects beyond the 10 year mark have to be heavily discounted.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#197

Post by cthalupa »

siliconc0w wrote: post #126

It's pretty clear that GLP-1 should be prescribed with protein powder. When your appetite is crushed you don't go for the chicken breast, you go for what is immediately appetizing (usually carbs+fats like pizza or fries). IMO this and a lack of resistance training (which should also be prescribed) probably makes up a large % of the muscle loss on these drugs. The problem is that the FDA only looks at dumb measures li…

I find it significantly easier to eat healthy on tirzepatide, fwiw.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#198

Post by cthalupa »

loeg wrote: post #39

So like, it's interesting that this happens in mice, but we did not see increased heart disease in human RCTs of these drugs. Maybe the mouse dose is just absurdly high? "Mice were then administered semaglutide 120 μg/kg/d for 21 days." That could be vaguely reasonable -- human doses range from, idk, ~36 to ~200 μg/kg/d (2.5mg/week to 15mg/week at ~100kg).

> but we did not see increased heart disease in human RCTs of these drugs.

In fact, we've even seen the opposite - that it's cardioprotective.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#199

Post by Someone1234 »

monero-xmr wrote: post #142
jyscao wrote: post #64

[flagged]

No one seems to remember Fen Phen or its stratospheric rise and fall https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine

No one who brings up Fen Phen seems to grasp how long both that and GLP-1s have been on the market. We're up to 4x Fen Phen's run already (5-years Vs. 20-years). GLP-1 Agonists aren't new, they've just been approved for additional usages.

So why, after 20-years, and millions of people haven't fen-phen-like side effects appeared?

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#200

Post by technofiend »

siliconc0w wrote: post #126

It's pretty clear that GLP-1 should be prescribed with protein powder. When your appetite is crushed you don't go for the chicken breast, you go for what is immediately appetizing (usually carbs+fats like pizza or fries). IMO this and a lack of resistance training (which should also be prescribed) probably makes up a large % of the muscle loss on these drugs. The problem is that the FDA only looks at dumb measures li…

That may be your experience, it wasn't mine. I eat very healthy on Ozempic but yeah of the 60 lbs lost so far some of it is noticeably muscle because I don't exercise enough. The next 60 lbs of fat lost will hopefully be me swapping fat for muscle from weight lifting and swimming.
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