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Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

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Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, TSMC's capacity isn't full right now. Taiwan fabrication labs, where the most cutting edge tech is produced, are above capacity. This is the core of this discussion. They are building new fabs inside and outside of Taiwan to catch up to demand, but as of now those are one or more generations behind. To the rest of your initial statement, it starts with a flawed premise so not worth responding. >I think Taiwan…

>Taiwan fabrication labs, where the most cutting edge tech is produced, are above capacity. This is the core of this discussion. Total TSMC capacity is at around 70-80%. During covid, it was peak at near 100%. I mean, the fact that you think having Chinese customers freely bid on TSMC wafers does not increase TSMC revenue is silly. Basic economics. More demand you have, more revenue. >Reliance on a hostile neighbor t…

>Total TSMC capacity is at around 70-80%.

I specifically distinguished Taiwan on island capacity vs TSMC global capacity in my prior reply. Taiwan TSMC fabs producing cutting edge fabrication is at 100% capacity. Taiwan is the specific topic of this post which is why I offer the differentiation.

As for the rest of your reply, we can agree to disagree. Have a good day.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a somewhat shallow and more buzz phrasey explanation of it. China wanted to invade Taiwan long before it became a democracy. And China is adjacent to many prosperous democracies like Japan and South Korea. Not to mention the hundred million middle class Chinese tourists and numerous students who can see the developed democracies with their own eyes. With Occam's razor, the simple answer is really that they co…

> Taiwan did the same for many years. IIRC Officially the ROC still claim the entire mainland, Mongolia, and parts of Russia as their territory.

... because the alternative would be to officially declare independence, which would trigger the bully on the mainland so is avoided for now.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ethnically, linguistically and culturally Chinese Again I ask - where is this impression coming from? And for what definition of "Chinese?" Can you please write the specific term you're thinking of in Mandarin to be more clear? In English "Chinese" means too many things, especially with the CPC changing the definition over the last 50 years or so. To be fair, the same thing is happening in Mandarin, so it would hel…

The impression and definition come from anthropology and history. In this case Chinese means 中华 and there's the Chinese language, race, and culture or 华文, 汉族, 中华文化. I apologise if I don't grasp some nuance from the words in Chinese I chose but from an objective, historical point of view, these terms are consistent. The lineage and changes (or lack of changes) of these has been established with varying levels of defin…

Well, specifically regarding 華 and 華人, if you want to watch something interesting, ask a group of Mandarin speakers that aren't PRC citizens whether they're 華人. 9/10 times they will immediately begin arguing with eachother about the answer. That's basically my point: 華人 and similar concepts in English described as "Chinese" have been historically defined by empires, written about by empires, etc, and modern anthropological techniques are finally teasing apart that this concept isn't necessarily natural but more derived from the efforts of any given empire in Chinese history - all building on eachother and legitimizing their given rule using these historical concepts. I certainly don't disagree with you that there's a lineage of these concepts!

> DNA tracing has established the genetic continuity of a Han race going back thousands of years, with an extremely homogeneous genetic profile between members of the race.

This seems to me to be an oversimplification of even the "well accepted standards," such as for example there's a clear delineation between northern and southern "Han." You can subdivide Han even further purely genetically. Furthermore, at the end of the day, defining race by genetics is always a bit of a rabbit chase since it's a relatively meaningless distinction without considering culture, and culturally, the group most call "Han" is extremely diverse, much moreso than portrayed historically or in the modern era. I won't go into the trouble of listing the distinctive ethnic groups, many of whom aren't even recognized by the CPC, but suffice to say basically every province has one or more distinct ethnic groups normally described simply as "Han," and that's before counting what the CPC (and others) designates as "aboriginal."

> Next most definitive is the language.

I would say this is the least definitive! The unique nature of a morphosyllabic language is many languages can be written with it. Yes, definitely the various languages of the cultures within the PRC's modern territory are unarguably similar, but that's a feature shared with various languages in other parts of the world. Take a look at India! So, for that reason, just because many different people throughout history could read what was being written by whatever Chinese empire, doesn't mean they were all Han via language.

Further to that, the reason that people in Taiwan, the PRC, Singapore, Malaysia, and throughout history Korea and Japan, could speak what we today call Mandarin, is because it was the language of an Empire. Of course one would speak the King's language in the King's land.

I mean, in the PRC they call every language "Chinese" when speaking about them in English - Shanghainese, Ninghainese, Ningbonese, everything. So it's just another empire doing empire stuff.

> Culture is the least definitive concept, but it's very plain you have a shared culture. It's not exactly the same (and culture varies within a country too) but historically it is very clear it comes from the same culture. Frankly it's quite a basic fact that the people on Taiwan and China have historically been part of same people.

With all due respect, just saying this doesn't really refute my argument.

> both what might be called the "CCP Han identity" and "Taiwanese identity" are political movements.

Yes, this is an overall point I have, that these concepts are difficult to divorce from politics, since politics has such a strong effect on what these are. E.g. if it weren't for the politics of the early United States, many indigenous languages in north america would be much more widely spoken (a recent news item I learned about, it's on mind) - regardless of the initial conquering, it was specifically the political policy of reeducation that ensured the basically permanent demise of these cultures.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#194
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should Taiwan fall, and China choose to ban exports Are there any "exports" to ban after the fall? The TSMC production was interrupted by a metro passing by few kilometers away. How can it sustain in a war?

Isn't Taiwan in a heavy earthquake zone, the Ring of Fire? Does that not affect the factories more than a subway passing several kilometers away?

There are no forcasting for earthquakes, but they can be monitored and prevented to a minimum using a warning system, as electromagnetic signals travel faster seismic waves. Some few milleseconds would be enough.

https://esg.tsmc.com/en/update/governance/caseStudy/1/index....

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reasonably familiar with it, you're missing mentioning why the US defended Taiwan initially. The US stopped any formal defense of Taiwan in 1980, not to the 1990s. During the period it did have a defense treaty it was within the context of creating an anti communist bulwark, and such defence treaties (even with highly suspect partners) was the bread and butter of geopolitics in the Cold War. It was not because o…

What One China policy did the US sign? China has a One China Principal which some countries uphold, but the US is not one of them. Our _policy_ is to acknowledge China’s position but does not endorse or challenge it. Chinese diplomats are eternally trying to conflate the two, saying even the US admits there is but one China, and thus supports China’s position on the Taiwan question, but that is not true. As for the s…

If one gets into the weeds of the whole messy thing, the Shanghai Communique acknowledges the position of both sides (Taiwan and China) that there is one China, the 1982 Joint Communique acknowledged the Chinese position and said the US had no intention of pursuing a "two Chinas" or "one China and Taiwan" policy. And of course there's a non stop stream of such political speak, which is a red herring for the whole issue. Beyond minor changes to wordings, the main things the US did that screwed over Taiwan:

1) Revoking the mutual defense treaty which legally bound the US to defend Taiwan, replacing it with a more vague law where military intervention was not clear. 2) Recognizing the PRC as the legitimate representative of China.

To align your claims slightly, Taiwan also claims the same section of the SCS (actually it claims a slightly larger part), so strictly speaking it is what happens if the "Chinese claims" are realised (Taiwan and China work jointly to support their claims, ironically enough). In real terms the economic effects of China with respect to the SCS are greatly exaggerated for a number of reasons. First being that shipping can be routed through Indonesia. It is not a chokepoint, it just happens to be the shortest route. Second, blockades have little to do with recognising swaths of ocean as territory. These are enforced by navies, and most blockades in history have not happened within the blockaders' own waters (for obvious reasons). It is no easier for China to blockade trade in the region if it claims the SCS. And third, of all the major economic powers, China has historically been the least likely to enact economic warfare like blockades or sanctions. There is also a fourth aspect where in the current political environment, the globalised, trade based economic order is the least popular in the US and assorted European states, not China (who in fact desperately needs trade).

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#196

Nvidia is obviously a US company, but the chips themselves are manufactured in Taiwan. And of course China sees Taiwan as a rogue province, at at least treats invasion there as "on the table". While the US may decide to actively support Taiwan, at the very least a war over that will disrupt production. Should Taiwan fall, and China choose to ban exports from there to the US, then the fun and games would really start.…

Logic cannot be built on lies.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taiwan fabrication labs, where the most cutting edge tech is produced, are above capacity. This is the core of this discussion. Total TSMC capacity is at around 70-80%. During covid, it was peak at near 100%. I mean, the fact that you think having Chinese customers freely bid on TSMC wafers does not increase TSMC revenue is silly. Basic economics. More demand you have, more revenue. >Reliance on a hostile neighbor t…

>Total TSMC capacity is at around 70-80%. I specifically distinguished Taiwan on island capacity vs TSMC global capacity in my prior reply. Taiwan TSMC fabs producing cutting edge fabrication is at 100% capacity. Taiwan is the specific topic of this post which is why I offer the differentiation. As for the rest of your reply, we can agree to disagree. Have a good day.

  I specifically distinguished Taiwan on island capacity vs TSMC global capacity in my prior reply. Taiwan TSMC fabs producing cutting edge fabrication is at 100% capacity. Taiwan is the specific topic of this post which is why I offer the differentiation.
Well yea, the most cutting edge node such as N3 are pre-sold and in high demand. It doesn't make your statement about banning Chinese companies from using TSMC fabs having no effect on revenue right. That's just divorced from basic supply and demand economics.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Total TSMC capacity is at around 70-80%. I specifically distinguished Taiwan on island capacity vs TSMC global capacity in my prior reply. Taiwan TSMC fabs producing cutting edge fabrication is at 100% capacity. Taiwan is the specific topic of this post which is why I offer the differentiation. As for the rest of your reply, we can agree to disagree. Have a good day.

I specifically distinguished Taiwan on island capacity vs TSMC global capacity in my prior reply. Taiwan TSMC fabs producing cutting edge fabrication is at 100% capacity. Taiwan is the specific topic of this post which is why I offer the differentiation. Well yea, the most cutting edge node such as N3 are pre-sold and in high demand. It doesn't make your statement about banning Chinese companies from using TSMC fabs…

>That's just divorced from basic supply and demand economics.

Myopic views of demand assuming unlimited supply and no consideration to political and long term economical independence from a neighboring authoritarian communist regime pointing nuclear weapons at you threatening forced unification is divorced from reality.

Short term sales never negate long term consequences of golden handcuffs at the cost of freedom and democracy.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, it’s a huge revenue loss for Taiwan. and whose capacity will be sacrificed to fulfill this lost revenue potential?

I don’t understand what you mean by capacity.

Capacity as in the amount of chips they can make. If they are already at max capacity, then which of their customers currently maxing out that capacity will be told no so that they can suddenly start producing chips for other people.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#200
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's your measurement stick why aren't Iran and Afghanistan counted? You can't dismiss whole countries as terrorist organizations, no matter how they behave (China is at least as bad as Iran, for example, they also run a hostage taking business, and only difference in weaponry is that China actually rapidly succeeded in their nuclear program, which the world then proceeded to totally ignore and refuse to discuss…

> aren't Iran Iran's position is ambiguous, though. There is no evidence that they'd be willing to engage in any full-scale conflict. If it was purely ideological they'd be doing much more than they are doing now. e.g. Hamas is seemingly willing to see Gaza razed to the ground and with a significant proportion of its population killed than concede anything (no semi rational state behaves that way). Afghanistan is eco…

This assumes they can do more than they're doing now (without immediately losing control). Frankly, after Russia demonstrated how well they can defend their own border, I'm not nearly as willing to believe states making threats ...
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