Live data from Hacker News

Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

sfgate.com

191–200 of 264 posts

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#191
post #145

I think there’s a legitimate market opportunity here. I am seeking a cofounder to build the job board that vets employers, and makes money by charging candidates to access it. The problem to be solved, imo, is ghost listings. - I don’t care if a company ghosts me because they hired someone else - I care if I spend time filling out applications for jobs that don’t exist I’m not sure how to make participation by the em…

Incentivize the employer to only provide real listings by having them pay to advertise a listing. Let them be reimbursed if it's filled via the platform. You don't need to solve the problem 100%. An employer can still drag their feet and not fill a listing. But by aligning all incentives you can drastically reduce the problem.

My understanding is that employers already do pay to post on LI, indeed, etc. It simply works out that paying for ghost jobs is worth it, so the enforcement mechanism needs to be a ban/other thing that doesn't rely on pricing

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#192

I'd love to go back to times where it was fine for a candidate not to have a LinkedIn. Currently, regardless of your blog, or your multiple StackOverflow answers, or your GitHub, or your posts on any of the other tech-focused communities, if HR doesn't see your LinkedIn, it's as if you're off-planet. The tech field is centered around skills. You're under pressures to keep them sharp and up to date. When you're lookin…

A tech focused network who have zero HR people so it wouldn’t help

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#193
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model that Americans would take any job if the wages were high enough is simple but obviously false. For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. For desk jobs there's no amount that'll overcome Americans' cultural belief that you can't do math unless you were born as a special sort of person who is "good at math".

1 million/year? There’s definitely an amount that’d allow to find enough workers locally. The other question is how much would the produce cost and how many people would be willing to pay.

[deleted]

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model that Americans would take any job if the wages were high enough is simple but obviously false. For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. For desk jobs there's no amount that'll overcome Americans' cultural belief that you can't do math unless you were born as a special sort of person who is "good at math".

> For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. If you don't think Americans are willing to pick fruits and vegetables, go find a farmer, have him put a sign at the edge of his property that says "Free fruits and vegetables, you pick them yourself" and watch how quickly the field is emptied.

This is obnoxious pedantry which is ignoring the parent's obvious actual point: food obeys a demand curve just like every other product, and what the parent clearly meant was that, at the labor price native Americans would want for these jobs, the resulting food price would be such that not enough people would buy the food to make it worthwhile.

And while this may have been idle speculation a few years ago, we now have pretty solid empirical evidence: when food prices increased by 10-20%, even in the middle of the fastest-growing wages in decades, the country had a collective temper tantrum.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#195

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

I've recently witnessed a situation where VP hired someone he used to work with This VP is not the best judge of talent. The guy barely does any work, and rarely responds to messages. He'll send me a scheduled slack at 8 AM. I reply. I don't hear from him all day. It's incredibly frustrating, since we had better candidates.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. In this market? Throw me a hoe tell me where to dig. I just need to pay rent.

Well that's probably part of the problem. You have to live within commute range of the work to do it, and people don't want to live in small towns or Central Valley CA unless they're in the respected local landowner class. I know there are people who do part-time work in oil fields or fishing ships, so that's always possible if you want to move to North Dakota or Alaska temporarily.

I see. Yeah, that's tricky. It's less of "I don't want to" moreso than "I literally* cannot move". I'm paying off a house and moving to another state to pay rent on top of that mortgage ruins the point. For 200k, sure. But I know that's not realistic even if I was the best farmhand.

*Okay, I can "literally" talk with family about selling the home. But I do just need some steady work during the downtimes. I'm not at a point where I feel I want to uproot my entire lifestyle, career, and livlihood just to do blue collar work.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#197

Well I opened the article, near the beginning I saw the text: "81% of recruiters admitted to posting ads for positions that were fake or already filled." Instantly that felt completely insane to me, my bullshit detector went off the chart, so since they provided a source, I followed up on the source to see the evidence for myself. What do you know, the source is from a "my perfect resume" website that apparently cond…

What about job postings for a position already held by an H1B visa holder?

What about job postings that are not taken down until a new hire is given the offer, agrees verbally, signs the paperwork, relocates and actually shows up on the job?

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. In this market? Throw me a hoe tell me where to dig. I just need to pay rent.

Well that's probably part of the problem. You have to live within commute range of the work to do it, and people don't want to live in small towns or Central Valley CA unless they're in the respected local landowner class. I know there are people who do part-time work in oil fields or fishing ships, so that's always possible if you want to move to North Dakota or Alaska temporarily.

I don't know about the rest of the nation, but in the American Southwest, there's a distinct socio-economic class of "migrant farmworker" with a long tradition. And it's a Hispanic cultural tradition.

There would be basically zero chance of anyone in my urban high school, or circle of friends, to turn around and say "I'm going to be a migrant farmworker when I graduate!" and it's unclear whether any non-Latino could even achieve such a career. GP indicated that urban/suburban living wouldn't be possible. You'd certainly need to move around, and you'd be an outcast if you didn't speak Spanish, if you weren't nominally Catholic, or celebrate holidays like a Hispanic. Your children would come to learn Spanish and cultural customs, but they'd still be outcast because of racism. You'd have a weird relationship with the overseers, because they'd be more like you, so neither side would really accept you.

(Sub)urban White kids are usually groomed to go to college and get a white-collar or office job, and the dropouts do some kind of tech vocational path, or end up doing clerking minimum-wage to get by. So you have a spectrum of white/blue collar, but there's no path to "migrant farmworker" or other sort of laborer, because my people Just Don't Do That. It's unthinkable.

Even agrarian Native American communities have a huge problem with "brain drain" there, because the opportunities on the Reservation are zilch, unless you want to work at a casino? So young Natives dream of leaving at the first chance, going into the city, and assimilating, losing their culture, because it's a survival thing. Their agriculture isn't sustainable, no matter how you slice it--what are they going to do, hire from outside?

Since the 80s we've had White people who said that migrants come to steal our jobs. Or they say they're taking jobs no American wants. But realistically, even if American wanted those jobs at those wages, they couldn't have them, because of the ethnic hegemony in certain industries.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#199

Hireing and being hired seem to have devolved into a bilateral spamfest. The more applicants per position, the more applications you need to fill. “Always, always, always put networking as one of the top components of your job search strategy,” This is such a strange advice. It is too late when searching for a job. A 'network' takes year to build.

Embarrassing admission: I don't really understand how "networking" works when it comes to getting a job. It's always just stated: "Go network, bro!" but without any explanation of how it is supposed to work. I wish someone could pretend I was a dummy, and explain the process to me using simple words. From start (you don't know anyone working at company X) to finish (you accept a job at company X). I remember long ago…

>I don't really understand how "networking" works when it comes to getting a job. It's always just stated: "Go network, bro!" but without any explanation of how it is supposed to work

There's two methodologies.

1. you work with peers (can be in school, work, or even a hobby if you're lucky), be a good person and provide good work. Years later you reach out and see how they are doing (ideally you keep good tabs on them, but let's be real. Men can just kinda disappear for years and resume a conversation with no tension nor animosity. So just reach out). They may or may not have something to refer you for. And ideally it's vice versa if they reach out to you. This method is organic but takes months, years of contact.

2. You're extremely specialized and you're your own business. Networking for future leads is part of your job. This will yield faster effects but mostly because you're already offering something of value.

of course, most people are stuck in the first bucket, especially early in your career.

>The way it was explained to me was to go up to them and pretend to be their friend, talk about sportsball, drink alcohol with them, gain some rapport or something... It was never really clear what the right magical incantation was.

Yeah, that's schmoozing networking. If a person likes you, it opens doors. This is just a universal sensation. it's the "dirty networking", but also the "classic networking". How you meet mates, how you make a good impression among socialites, etc.

This method relies less on your skills as a prospective. employee and more on your ability to quickly hit it off with a new person to the point where you're memorable. It's a way, but definitely not one everyone can do (nor wants to do). It's an entirely different skillset so you really have to train that muscle (and given your participation here, you may need to adjust your "likes" to more mainstream stuff. Or at least "tolerances". Sportsball discussion can open new doors if you really want to go that route).

>But, just for argument's sake, let's say I go out and successfully manage to "network" you. You now know me and think I would be a good employee. What now? I guess I say "Hey, rightbyte, I'm looking for a job at your company. Do you know of any roles that are hiring?" You say "Sure, here's job position XYZ, and the link to go apply. Good luck!" And now I'm back where I started

not all networks are created equal. Your goal with a job network is to get a referral, if not an outright fast track to an offer. If you got nothing more than a recruiter response, that person either can't do much more or doesn't want to do much more. Don't underestimate the power of a referral though. Those applications go through an entirely different pipeline. Basically the fast line for Disneyland.

That's also why "natural networking " is a long game. Juniors networking with themselves don't yield much. 20 years later, those juniors turned managers/founders/leads might just bring you into a company with the wave of their hand.

>The whole 'networking' enterprise seems like a bizarre, opaque process where nobody can explain how it works, but everyone's advice is that we should all somehow "go do it" as it's an important component of a job search.

That's because relationships are a bizarre opaque process where nobody can explain how it works. Sometimes you just trip into the right person and you're friends for life. Sometimes you are off on the wrong track with someone forever because you remind them of an unrelated person in their life. people on a macro level are a lottery of some sorts.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talent acquisition is the cost of being in business. Hiring is hard, I admit. Being efficient while remaining within legal and regulatory frameworks is fine and expected, fraud and misrepresentation through job postings with no intent to hire is not.

I know; I’m saying it bites these companies in the ass when their hiring is broken.

it does, but the damage isn't proportional to job seekers and there can even be malicious incentives to do this. That should be punished and discouraged.

We've seen for a long time now that companies will put up with a lot of inefficiencies for various other bottom lines.

Post reply on HN