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Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

berthub.eu

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Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#191
post #73
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In truth the license doesn't matter. My accounting software might be open or closed. My supplier doesn't sell me based on the license. They sell me by convincing me that everything just works, and when it doesn't they'll be there to fix it. The license matters indirectly: if it's open source, you know that as a fall-back other suppliers might be able to step up and take over, if your original guys fail or get too i…

Moreover, if you have an issue with OSS software and have competent people in your own IT team, they could attempt to fix the problem and get results faster than going through the whole incident-report-blame-the-victim-finally-have-them-confirm-your-repro-wait-for-next-version-release-which-hopefully-includes-the-fix ordeal. Then if you contribute the fix back to the project, the community of users benefits as well,…

That's the theory, but in practice that's not how it works.

Firstly, of course, most customers don't have any programming skills at all, so the point is moot. But let's limit ourselves to customers that do have IT departments.

It's worth noting that IT departments are already busy. Deploying resources because you found a bug in PostgreSQL is unlikely.

But ok, you found a bug. And we happen to have a highly paid C programmer on staff. Let's ask him to take a look.

He's not familiar with PostgreSQL architecture- do it'll take a few days to download the source, make a build, hope the build is close to our version, and deploy to production. (This has already cost the business more than a enterprise support contract from Postgres but whatever...)

He then spends a month working through various subsystems to determine the exact flow that leads to your bug. (I'm gonna ignore all the cases where the "bug" isn't a bug.) He makes a tweak, merges it into the current build, and deploys.

He even submits the PR which may or may not be accepted. Until it is he's regularly pulled from his task to update the PostgreSQL source and rebuild.

Everyone else plagues him either PostgreSQL questions twice a week now. His manager gives him a 'poor' rating at the next review because the thing he was actually hired to do is not getting done.

Unless the company is selling to other PostgreSQL developers, there's no "free publicity". That's not how publicity works.

So yes, your scenario is possible, but its simply not how things happen. You complain to the IT department - they add PostgreSQL enterprise support to the next budget. They're not looking to take on extra load unnecessarily.

Yes, the major contributers to big OSS projects are tech companies contributing full time programmers. And that's a good thing. But customers do not have the time or resources (or inclination) to go down this road.

Frankly, it's too hard (in most cases) to just build the software, much less understand the code to make changes.

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#192
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, if you have an issue with OSS software and have competent people in your own IT team, they could attempt to fix the problem and get results faster than going through the whole incident-report-blame-the-victim-finally-have-them-confirm-your-repro-wait-for-next-version-release-which-hopefully-includes-the-fix ordeal. Then if you contribute the fix back to the project, the community of users benefits as well,…

That's the theory, but in practice that's not how it works. Firstly, of course, most customers don't have any programming skills at all, so the point is moot. But let's limit ourselves to customers that do have IT departments. It's worth noting that IT departments are already busy. Deploying resources because you found a bug in PostgreSQL is unlikely. But ok, you found a bug. And we happen to have a highly paid C pro…

Yes, that's why I was carefully formulating this as a fall-back insurance for the worst case, not something most customers would do lightly.

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#193
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, easy to solve, means the solution is simple, not that reaching/implementing the solution is simple. Laws enforcing and school teaching are very complex, but the solution is damn simple. It's the road to it the complex part.

So like how single-payer universal healthcare in the US is also a simple solution.

For health care the solution is making it totally public: all other the world the more health business exists the worst results and the higher cost you get.

There are aspects of a State to function that MUST be ONLY fully public. Again it's simple, in conceptual terms, hard to get applied in reality.

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies like Google have many millions of lines of code in proprietary in house code. But they depend on an even larger amount of code in OSS form. I don't think this is actually true: 1. The Google codebase is on the order of billions of lines of code, not millions. 2. It's basically all written in house, from the threading libraries and core standard libraries up. The parts that are open source (e.g. Linux, Ope…

Webkit still is open source. Apple never owned the full copyright to it and they would have to do a complete rewrite to get out of that license, which is GPL and always has been. Safari is indeed closed source. But it uses webkit. For the same reason, Google is stuck with the same license and copyright situation. Whether they like it or not, webkit/kml/chromium are forever GPL. Nothing short of a complete rewrite can…

WebKit isn't GPL, it's LGPL, which is why Safari is closed source.

I'm not really underestimating anything. I worked on the Google codebase for years. It has very little dependence on open source code relative to its overall size.

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#195
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the theory, but in practice that's not how it works. Firstly, of course, most customers don't have any programming skills at all, so the point is moot. But let's limit ourselves to customers that do have IT departments. It's worth noting that IT departments are already busy. Deploying resources because you found a bug in PostgreSQL is unlikely. But ok, you found a bug. And we happen to have a highly paid C pro…

Yes, that's why I was carefully formulating this as a fall-back insurance for the worst case, not something most customers would do lightly.

It might seem like "fall back insurance". And I guess it does happen sometimes. But it's of negligible value in the _purchasing_ decision.

If we're worried about the supplier now then we don't bu from them. If they suddenly change down the road (and most established ones don't) then the fallback is either "we don't need support anymore" or (more likely) we start looking for another system.

I've been on the other side of this. We sell a product into an established mature domain. We're the "newbie" on the block. Most of the sales we get in this space are from customers who are unhappy with their supplier. We offer better sales and service, and obviously a smooth transition from their existing data (which we import.)

Neither product is OSS - but even if it was that would be irrelevant to the user. (It would however have made our integration code a lot easier to write, so there is that...) A lot of the users we convert have "bought" their software. It's costing them nothing to use it. But they switch to us anyway (we have a subscription model) because our model can afford to fund full time support staff, whereas the sales model cannot.

So, I think this "choose another servicer" is more of a theoretical than practical feature for most OSS systems. Obviously there's really good support for the really big projects, but basically nothing from 99% of them...

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#196

You are mentioning that an experiment with nextcloud has failed? I cannot find any evidence regarding that, even more I see it highly used among governments and municipalities in the EU.

I’m aware of a party in Germany which, at some levels, uses Nextcloud to great success so I could imagine them pushing for it in their fraction. No idea why that wouldn’t work though given that they have tons of experience

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#197
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why I was carefully formulating this as a fall-back insurance for the worst case, not something most customers would do lightly.

It might seem like "fall back insurance". And I guess it does happen sometimes. But it's of negligible value in the _purchasing_ decision. If we're worried about the supplier now then we don't bu from them. If they suddenly change down the road (and most established ones don't) then the fallback is either "we don't need support anymore" or (more likely) we start looking for another system. I've been on the other side…

> If we're worried about the supplier now then we don't buy from them.

This sounds just like a general argument against prenups and specifying any kind of contract penalties?

In any case: one way a supplier can make me less worried about them now is by open sourcing.

I mostly agree with most of your points.

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#198
post #182
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A UNIX™ certification is not the same as being actual code from Unix™. NeXTSTEP was 4.3BSD plus Mach, using Display Postscript as its windowing system and TIFF as its image format, supporting transparency for icons. macOS is FreeBSD plus Mach, using Display PDF as its windowing format and PNG as its image format, supporting transparency for icons. Basically NeXTSTEP but every component upgraded to its then-modern equ…

Where do you mention Unix™ is the original source code, and not UNIX™ as defined by OpenGroup, the owners of UNIX™? > Bell Labs did the same with Unix, but Unix was still not open source. This is why we run GNU/Linux today, not Unix™. I know pretty well how NeXTSTEP used to be, my graduation project was to port a visualization framework from NeXTSTEP/Objective-C to Windows/C++.

The issue at hand was me making an analogy about how Meta releasing LLaMA to many .edu addresses still would not mean that LLaMA would be actually used widely, since the Unix™ source code was similarly released by Bell Labs, but the actual Unix™ source code did not end up being the code which we now use.

The fact that UNIX™ later went on to become a compatibility specification, not a specific implementation, is irrelevant to the analogy.

Re: Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rates among the most arrogant pompous asshole responses I've ever encountered on HN. I ran updates exery single morning to avoid exactly this problem.

You "ran updates every single morning" but somehow did not see the popups Windows puts up warning about required patching and did not take the "pause updates for up to 7 days" option that Windows provides? Sorry but that doesn't sound very believable.

IDGAF about anything from someone as arrogant as yourself.
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