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What Is a Particle? (2020)

quantamagazine.org

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Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#191

Post by xanderlewis »

mock-possum wrote: post #170
xanderlewis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem lies that it is hard to imagine something that does have zero dimensions. Do you really think so? It’s not hard to picture the real number line, with the point zero (or any other single point) distinguished. Sure — if you draw it in the standard schematic way you have to give it some area, but it still seems quite intuitive that it’s ‘zero-dimensional’. Especially if you play around with converging sequ…

I do - specifically, it’s hard to imagine a group of things which collectively constitute mass, but individually constitute no mass . How can something come from nothing?

I thought you were just speaking geometrically.

What particles are you talking about exactly? I was under the impression that most particles that constitute things with mass do themselves have mass.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#192

Post by binary132 »

itishappy wrote: post #185
binary132 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, until you go “well, what’s magnetism made of?” and the answer is “a field!” That’s pretty nonsensical.

I disagree! I think fields are very intuitive and it's everything else that's nonsensical! Magnetism isn't made of anything. It is a field, and it's one your can interact with directly. Compare that with, say, table salt. "What's table salt made of?" Uh. It's made of atoms entirely unrelated to salt, like sodium and chlorine. "What are atoms made of?" Uh. They're made of tiny electric particles zipping around at rela…

“Magnetism isn’t made of anything” is a nonsensical statement, of course it is made of something, we just don’t know what. That’s why “it’s made of fields” is nonsensical, it’s no different than saying “it’s made of atoms” and then refusing to think about what an atom is. “Atoms aren’t made of anything, it IS an atom”.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#193

Post by binary132 »

Koshkin wrote: post #163
lottin wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very frustrating. The idea that the universe is made of fields is nonsensical. I don't understand why so many physicists keep saying that.

"It's very frustrating. The idea that Earth revolves around the Sun is nonsensical. I don't understand why so many astronomers keep saying that."

“It just is how it is, no we don’t know why, just accept it”

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#194

Post by itishappy »

binary132 wrote: post #192
itishappy wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree! I think fields are very intuitive and it's everything else that's nonsensical! Magnetism isn't made of anything. It is a field, and it's one your can interact with directly. Compare that with, say, table salt. "What's table salt made of?" Uh. It's made of atoms entirely unrelated to salt, like sodium and chlorine. "What are atoms made of?" Uh. They're made of tiny electric particles zipping around at rela…

“Magnetism isn’t made of anything” is a nonsensical statement, of course it is made of something, we just don’t know what. That’s why “it’s made of fields” is nonsensical, it’s no different than saying “it’s made of atoms” and then refusing to think about what an atom is. “Atoms aren’t made of anything, it IS an atom”.

> of course it is made of something

Why do you say that? Do you think there's anything fundamental?

We actually were convinced atoms were fundamental for a while, until we stumbled upon evidence they're not. Now we think fields are fundamental, and as far as I know, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#195

Post by binary132 »

itishappy wrote: post #194
binary132 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Magnetism isn’t made of anything” is a nonsensical statement, of course it is made of something, we just don’t know what. That’s why “it’s made of fields” is nonsensical, it’s no different than saying “it’s made of atoms” and then refusing to think about what an atom is. “Atoms aren’t made of anything, it IS an atom”.

> of course it is made of something Why do you say that? Do you think there's anything fundamental? We actually were convinced atoms were fundamental for a while, until we stumbled upon evidence they're not. Now we think fields are fundamental, and as far as I know, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

fields are just a descriptive mathematical device or language for expressing how something we don’t understand at all behaves, but this discussion is going to start going even further down the zany “language isn’t real” rabbithole where nothing means anything and no meaning can be communicated so I guess it’s kinda moot

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#196

Post by itishappy »

binary132 wrote: post #195
itishappy wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> of course it is made of something Why do you say that? Do you think there's anything fundamental? We actually were convinced atoms were fundamental for a while, until we stumbled upon evidence they're not. Now we think fields are fundamental, and as far as I know, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

fields are just a descriptive mathematical device or language for expressing how something we don’t understand at all behaves, but this discussion is going to start going even further down the zany “language isn’t real” rabbithole where nothing means anything and no meaning can be communicated so I guess it’s kinda moot

That's where we disagree: I think we understand them quite well. Well enough that there's no open questions leading us to believe there must be something else. Fields alone describe all of modern physics. As such, there's no indication that there's something more fundamental than fields.

Contrast this with atoms: there are things atoms alone cannot explain, like the Zeeman and Stark effects. There must be something more fundamental going on. (Spoiler: It's fields.)

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