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Vim clutch

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Re: Vim clutch

#191

Post by dsrguru »

merlincorey wrote: post #143
dsrguru wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: this post assumes Vim, not other implementations of VI If you type fast, you don't want to have to spend time correcting for line estimations that are slightly off as a result of thinks like 20h. For navigation, just use forward slash to search and you'll land right where you want. It's also almost always faster to use f/F/t/T in conjunction with semicolon or comma for jumping to specific letters than using h o…

In emacs, we do the same with C-s (search-forward) and C-r (search-backward). It is highly recommended to "jump" to the exact text you want, rather than fiddling around guessing and correcting numerical character and line jumps. Just a bit of support from the dark side !

That's interesting. When I used Emacs with the default bindings, I only used C-s or C-r when I was genuinely trying to search for something, not for navigation. I think I normally used an estimation like C-u 2 0 C-n exactly where I would recommend against doing 20j in Vim. [I meant 20j instead of 20h in this post's grandparent.] This discrepancy probably arose in part because I tend to edit documents as I go in Emacs since there's no mode switching, meaning I didn't usually have to do much jumping around in files, and in part because in Vim I'm used to using the /?nN keys as the motion components of editing commands, not just as isolated motions for navigation, so my fingers are used to jumping to places by searching.

Re: Vim clutch

#192

Post by cageface »

jlgreco wrote: post #172
merlincorey wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding emacs pinky , many people find remapping CAPSLOCK to CONTROL helps quite a bit. Here is one popular xmodmapping: remove lock = Caps_Lock remove Control = Control_L keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L add lock = Caps_Lock add Control = Control_L

CapsLock to Escape is something I find useful with Vim. A lot of people advocate mapping it to Ctrl then using Ctrl-c or Ctrl-], but It's better to just skip the middleman I think.

You can also map it to something like 'jj'. I don't use vim that much now but I found that more ergonomic than any of the special keys.

Re: Vim clutch

#193

Post by jlgreco »

robomartin wrote: post #187
jlgreco wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Editing efficiency, which is what everyone else here is talking about, is (I suspect), completely unrelated to business efficiency (which seems to be what you are primarily talking about). Your Bill Joy quote is talking about editing efficiency. I do not suggest that editing efficiency has a measurable impact on business efficiency, and I do not see anyone here suggesting that it does. You seem to be under the impres…

Unless your programming is a hobby, then it IS business. It sure is to the guy paying the bills. Imagine a conversation like this: PROGRAMER: "Hey, boss, on Monday we want to switch to vi/m because everyone says it is more efficient". MGR: "Do you have any data to support that? Will the project get done on-time, on-budget, faster, better and with less bugs?" PROGRAMMER: "Well, I can't guarantee any of that and can't…

This is hopeless. You clearly have no interest in understanding what others are trying to sayto you. You came here to flame and it seems that is all you wish to do.

Re: Vim clutch

#194

Post by jlgreco »

cwills wrote: post #186
jlgreco wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are telling you that they find vi style editing to be beneficial or valuable for efficiency reasons, and you seem to me to be dismissing this. That is what I would call discrediting the experiencing of others.

I think you're both arguing different things: jlgreco: vi/vim is an efficient text editor when you learn it! And even more efficient with a foot pedal! Don't discredit our time spent learning vi/vim when it is in fact an efficient text editor! robomartin: vi/vim may be an efficient text editor, but in the grand scheme of a large(non-trivial) project, small improvements to text editing efficiency are irrelevant. Parti…

In the long run, we all die. Vi usage won't prevent that.

Is that observation on topic or even insightful? No.

Of course what makes this frustrating is that he does not even acknowledge that he is making a different point than other people.

Re: Vim clutch

#195

Post by sofal »

cwills wrote: post #183
sofal wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trollish nonsense. You haven't even really read my comment, or you'd know that the leverage ratio I mentioned, which you're challenging me to justify, was actually about the efficiency of the tools you yourself were touting, not vim. Your "conclusions" are obviously trolling.

Trolling. Really? This guy is expressing an equally valid argument. And one that I suspect a fair portion of HN readers agree with. Personally, I thought it was April 1st when I saw a foot pedal for a text editor!? Accusing him of trolling is really lowest-common-denominator fanboi bullshit. He makes valid arguments, agree to disagree and move on.

Yes, trolling. Really. In every sense of the word. He didn't even respond to my argument. It's whining about downvotes, about how he doesn't have time for this argument, more repetition of the same irrelevant text-editing-is-unimportant argument that I already responded to, followed by deliberately trolling conclusions. This is not a back-and-forth with points and counterpoints. This is me responding to his points, and him throwing the same shit back like a parrot. I call that trolling.

You think he has a valid argument, cwills? Maybe you can point out to me where he has actually responded to my points.

Re: Vim clutch

#196

Post by robomartin »

jlgreco wrote: post #193
robomartin wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless your programming is a hobby, then it IS business. It sure is to the guy paying the bills. Imagine a conversation like this: PROGRAMER: "Hey, boss, on Monday we want to switch to vi/m because everyone says it is more efficient". MGR: "Do you have any data to support that? Will the project get done on-time, on-budget, faster, better and with less bugs?" PROGRAMMER: "Well, I can't guarantee any of that and can't…

This is hopeless. You clearly have no interest in understanding what others are trying to sayto you. You came here to flame and it seems that is all you wish to do.

That is simply not true. Not one person has offered any data to support the assertions on vi efficiency. Not one. All I have gotten are the equivalent of "because we say so". I am not flaming, I am not caving-in to the bullying, which is a different matter entirely.

In the interest of being constructive I decided to clear the bad blood and start another thread that is designed to educate us who might not understand why some are so passionate about vi. Here it is:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4145060

If those who post to this new thread stay within the proposed framework what will come out of it is a set of recipes that show (and support) the claims about vi efficiency. I hope you will be one of the first to join that thread and offer a few examples. There are many who know absolutely nothing about vi. Some have avoided it like the plague. And then, those like me, who only use it when absolutely forced to. This is an opportunity to educate all of us. Thanks in advance. I think it is safe to say that this thread is over (save those who want to talk about the foot-pedal).

Re: Vim clutch

#197

Post by robomartin »

sofal wrote: post #195
cwills wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trolling. Really? This guy is expressing an equally valid argument. And one that I suspect a fair portion of HN readers agree with. Personally, I thought it was April 1st when I saw a foot pedal for a text editor!? Accusing him of trolling is really lowest-common-denominator fanboi bullshit. He makes valid arguments, agree to disagree and move on.

Yes, trolling. Really. In every sense of the word. He didn't even respond to my argument. It's whining about downvotes, about how he doesn't have time for this argument, more repetition of the same irrelevant text-editing-is-unimportant argument that I already responded to , followed by deliberately trolling conclusions. This is not a back-and-forth with points and counterpoints. This is me responding to his points,…

In an effort to clear bad blood and actually learn something I decided to start this thread:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4145060

It should be obvious that it is intended to be useful and educational. No flaming. No trolling. No personal attacks. Just reproducible facts.

I am hoping that you will be one of the first people to post a recipe to that thread so that those of us who don't know enough about vi will, hopefully, see the light.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Vim clutch

#198

Post by robomartin »

devth wrote: post #154
robomartin wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I'll bite. Please educate me. Give me a list of the "highly efficient text-editing capabilities".

If you know vim I'd assume you already know the answer. If you know vim and don't know the answer, I guess vim just doesn't work for you. But for many others, it does. I'm not going to enumerate what's already covered in endless blog posts, SO answers, books, IRC logs, and .vimrcs.

Easy out. Make a claim and don't support it. Here's an effort to be constructive:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4145060

I hope you will be one of the first to post to that thread.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Vim clutch

#199

Post by clvv »

jlgreco wrote: post #172
merlincorey wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding emacs pinky , many people find remapping CAPSLOCK to CONTROL helps quite a bit. Here is one popular xmodmapping: remove lock = Caps_Lock remove Control = Control_L keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L add lock = Caps_Lock add Control = Control_L

CapsLock to Escape is something I find useful with Vim. A lot of people advocate mapping it to Ctrl then using Ctrl-c or Ctrl-], but It's better to just skip the middleman I think.

If you're using X, then xcape can map both Esc and Ctrl to Capslock. https://github.com/alols/xcape

Re: Vim clutch

#200

Post by SkyMarshal »

drunkenfly wrote: post #76
SkyMarshal wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you use it with Emacs?

This one is not quite useful as it works like on/off trigger, but the one, which can be used as a direct replacement of Ctrl-X or Meta-X will be quite useful. (I am actually Vim user, so I had to ask my Emacs guys on what will be useful with the pedal)

Same, that's why I asked. I know Emacs has various 'modes', like haskell-mode, org-mode, SLIME, etc., but I don't how or if a footpedal would make sense for that. I don't think Emacs users switch between those modes as frequently as Vim users switch between our main modes.
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