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Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

jxnl.co

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Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#191

Post by trinsic2 »

calmbonsai wrote: post #97
CliffStoll wrote: post #26

Similar experience: Citibank Retirement. I had about $80,000 in IRA/CD's. I'd created & contributed to them over a period of 35 years. Last year, it's time to retire, and Citibank won't give me half the money. It seems that some CD's are for "Cliff Stoll" and some for "Clifford Stoll". Citibank Retirement demanded a "Marriage Certificate, Divorce Decree, or Court Order" to demonstrate that "Cliff Stoll" is the same p…

Ah, Citi. Related to an earlier comment I posted on a different thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316889 , I didn't name the "national bank", but I now feel perfectly comfortable outing "Citibank" as the national bank that I will no longer (personally) do business with. Corporate stuff is a different matter. As a matter of policy, they do not empower their front-line (personal) banking CSR reps, and even…

> After 20 days of back-and-forth with non-answers, I finally sent them a certified letter giving them 30 days to "take action" or "explain non-action" on a specific dispute amounting to ~$5k.

> The responded with a non-reponse bizarre marketing letter in 10 days.

>I called to verify the prior letter was "on-record" in my account. Given the nature of the postage, it was already verified delivered.

What was the purpose of the certified letter? you can use that in court but did you take any further action?

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#192

Post by [deleted] »

CliffStoll wrote: post #26

Similar experience: Citibank Retirement. I had about $80,000 in IRA/CD's. I'd created & contributed to them over a period of 35 years. Last year, it's time to retire, and Citibank won't give me half the money. It seems that some CD's are for "Cliff Stoll" and some for "Clifford Stoll". Citibank Retirement demanded a "Marriage Certificate, Divorce Decree, or Court Order" to demonstrate that "Cliff Stoll" is the same p…

[deleted]

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#194

Post by ksenzee »

imroot wrote: post #188

I had a similar experience with US Bank. Business account, over $50k lost; they said that they can 'terminate their relationship with me at any time for any or no reason whatsoever,' and didn't have to return the money. The Fraud and Trust VP seemed shocked when I mentioned to her that it wasn't a big deal for me, and that I had my personal accounts with a credit union. It's been 4+ years. I've written the money off.

For $50k I would at least have a lawyer write them a nastygram. Wow.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#195

Post by throw101010 »

lisper wrote: post #182
ravenstine wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> managing your crypto keys, which is a skill in and of itself. Um, depending on how complicated/paranoid you want to get? Install the Phoenix wallet app and you've got your keys and Lightning node ready to go, pending added liquidity. Sure, it's not maximally secure, but a person can perform transactions outside the banking system pretty easily this way. No need to so consciously "manage" anything. Phone not secure…

> Install the Phoenix wallet That's trusting a third party. > get a hardware wallet like Ledger Again, trusting a third party, and one which had a data breach less than a year ago: https://www.ledger.com/blog/security-incident-report And even if you want to discount that, you still have the risk of physically losing the wallet or having it stolen. > If, by hiring someone, you mean using a custodian like Kraken, Yes,…

> That's trusting a third party.

It's not, Phoenix is a non-custodial wallet. They provide one shortly-custodial service to on-board on the Lightning Network (to provide a seamless experience, but you can do the process manually with your own node if you prefer). Once the channel on LN is open, it is non-custodial and trustless.

For Hardware Wallets, plenty of other providers exist, exempt of data breaches and dodgy services unlike Ledger. For Bitcoin Coldcard comes to mind.

For the risk of physically losing your keys, seems like a less random, more in your control, risk than trusting Chase Bank, see OP.

> trusting a crypto custodian

If that's your choice, at least you have the option to avoid this with crypto... that's one thing I will never get with people who systematically bash Bitcoin, nobody forces you to use it, it provides you optionality and full control of your assets, something traditional bank and fiat do not offer at all, you are forced by the state to pay your taxes with the currency they tell you, you are practically forced to use banking as a cash only life is pretty complicated these days... so why hate on a new option.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#196

Post by commercialnix »

jxnlco wrote: post #15
briandw wrote: post #3

I know that it's an extra expense, but shouldn't you get a lawyer involved first thing?

i was just a dude with 3 contractors, i figured it'd just get resolved cause i didnt do anything wrong...

You need access to a good lawyer or you're going to get run over. When you sue, you can sue for legal costs, damages to your business, and punitive damages.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#197

Post by commercialnix »

briandw wrote: post #125
jxnlco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i was just a dude with 3 contractors, i figured it'd just get resolved cause i didnt do anything wrong...

I can absolutely see myself falling into that same trap. Thinking that it's just a misunderstanding and that it'll get resolved any day now, just have to do one more thing. They can't be that unreasonable right? The unfortunate lesson that that you have to assume the worst and escalate right away.

This.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#198

Post by wanderr »

techsupporter wrote: post #47
wanderr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a bank you recommend? Mostly I use online banks but every now and then you just need to go to a physical bank. I am a bit nomadic so one with branches all over the country would be good, although I know those are the most likely to be terrible

Most credit unions participate in the credit union shared branching network, so I recommend joining your local credit union of choice. You can then go into the branches of several other credit unions to do most banking needs. The caveat is if there's a major problem, like here, then you'd need to deal directly with your home credit union.

Oh wow, I had never heard of that. I already have a CU on the other side of the country that I still use for loans because they've always had the lowest rates. I'll have to see if they participate.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#199

Post by pdonis »

benzible wrote: post #18
benzible wrote: post #9

About 10 years ago a startup I co-founded had about $3M in a Chase account. We received a notification that they were closing our account within 30 days. We weren't able to get any information but I assume this was a KYC false positive. The only thing I can think of is that we had some investors from the Middle East. We had no problem withdrawing our funds but since then, I've opened another business account and a pe…

Just for posterity, we received this on 6/28/2013. Looks like they actually gave us 60 days. > Dear [redacted] Inc. > A review of our records indicates that we are unable to retain your above-referenced account(s) (the "Accounts") at JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. (the "Bank"). > The terms and conditions governing the Accounts ("Account Rules") provide that the Bank may close your Accounts at any time. Although the Accoun…

> the Bank may close your Accounts at any time...the Account Rules do not require the Bank to provide you with advance notice of the termination of the Accounts

I assume most of the big banks probably have similar language, which would be a huge red flag to me for a small business account. But what about banks like Mercury Bank, mentioned in the article as being more supportive of small businesses? Do their terms of service provide at least some kind of guarantee about due process if the bank has a question about your account?

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#200

Post by pdonis »

benzible wrote: post #145
mijoharas wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've opened another business account and a personal travel credit card with Chase Out of interest, why would you do that after your previous experience with them?

The Chase Sapphire card was rated as the best travel card. I had no idea that I had been flagged personally at the time I applied. I can't remember why I chose them for a business account. At the time I was working under the assumption that this was a "lightning strike" type of event which could have happened with any bank. I'm more inclined to believe it's Chase-specific now, or at least more likely with Chase, esp.…

> I'm more inclined to believe it's Chase-specific now, or at least more likely with Chase, esp. based on other anecdotes in this thread!

The only reason anecdotes in this thread are about Chase is that Chase is the bank you mentioned in your article. If you had mentioned any other of the big banks I am sure you would get similar anecdotes. All of the big banks work basically the same way. For example, as I commented in another response upthread, they probably all have similar "we can screw your business any time we like and there's nothing you can do about it" language in their terms of service.

> my experience with Chase is by far the worst I've personally experienced.

Have any of your experiences with other big banks been small business accounts? If not, that's an obvious reason for your Chase experience to be worse.

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