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DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

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Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#191

Post by jasode »

bogwog wrote: post #152
jasode wrote: post #19

>Armed with competing landlords’ data, RealPage also encourages loyalty to the algorithm’s recommendations through, among other measures, “auto accept” functionality and pricing advisors who monitor landlords’ compliance. I think the "private prices" + "autoaccept" + "compliance" is the key misbehavior that gets RealPage into legal trouble. If competitors want to converge on prices in a legal manner , they have to do…

I think you're over analyzing and confusing things. Price fixing is when competitors work together to raise prices above what they would normally be in a competitive market. Using your gas station example, a gas station isn't going to look at a competitor selling gas at $4.15 and decide to raise their price to $4.45. They would lower their price to match the competition, otherwise they'd lose sales and make less mone…

>, a gas station isn't going to look at a competitor selling gas at $4.15 and decide to raise their price to $4.45. They would lower their price to match the competition, otherwise they'd lose sales and make less money.

But the airlines are also doing the opposite of your scenario: they also raise prices instead of lower them via legal "price signaling" via publicized fares[1] in the global reservations system.

Competitors can converge on a higher price instead of a lower price. It's not just one direction. They just need to do it via public price signaling to stay out of legal trouble.

In 2022, Apple Music raised their subscription from $9.99 to $10.99. Spotify then followed them and also raised their price to $10.99. By 2023, they both converged on $10.99. I think right now in 2024, Spotify is $1 higher at $11.99. Nobody should be surprised if Apple Music also raises its to $11.99.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=It+is+now+common+for+an+airl....

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#192

Post by robertlagrant »

Manuel_D wrote: post #126
itake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where does the public housing come from? WA and CA can't seem to figure out how to build public housing. In WA, the best I've seen is the gov buying hotels and having the hotel sit empty for years [0]. If regulations make it impossible to build housing and public housing has the same regulations, who is paying that bill? The existing residents via sales and property taxes? you can google construction costs in sf. how…

Washington has at least done a better job than San Francisco. Seattle has built over twice (IIRC three) times as many homes per-capita than SF over the last decade, despite lower population. The fact that rent control is banned statewide has a big role to play there.

It's not "despite" lower population. The thing that drives the costs up isn't evil landlords or the dreaded "profit motive". It's just demand massively outstripping supply, and high wages.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#193

Post by toomuchtodo »

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #174
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profits are fine, excessive profits at the cost of people who need housing are not. There is no silver bullet, but increasing supply along with strong regulation to protect renters is welcome vs them being cattle to be squeezed by for profit entities. Human rights are a thing, there is no right to profit. > The six largest publicly traded apartment companies in the U.S. — all of which are linked to an alleged rental…

[flagged]

I support price regulation when called for. Your hyperbole is...not congruent with reality, considering the incredible agriculture subsidies provided and automobile tariffs.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/08/economists...

https://www.ncsl.org/financial-services/price-gouging-state-...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...

From a paid Matt Stoller BIG (https://thebignewsletter.com/) piece on monopoly pricing:

> Something real is going on. In individual markets, CEOs have been bragging publicly that they are restraining production to increase prices. Profit margins in the food industry jumped during Covid and haven’t come back down. Or take rent. There’s a company called RealPage that works with the biggest corporate landlords to hold apartments empty so they can increase prices, which jumped up 11% in 2022. There’s some evidence of conspiracy around pricing in virtually every industry. Turkey, poultry, and pork. Frozen french fries. PVC pipe. Anesthesiology. Oil. Ammunition. Pharmaceuticals. K-Pop. Credit bureaus and FICO, Verisign, industrial gasses, architectural software, locks, entertainment data. Homebuilders. Garden chemicals. Defense and aerospace. Ticketing. Estate Sales. Gaming. Drug wholesaling. Work ID information. Seeds and chemicals.

Laws to crack down on this behavior has popular support, so I won't spend additional time defending the idea in this forum, as it is unnecessary.

https://blueprint2024.com/polling/inflation-poll-06-25/

https://blueprint2024.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Screens...

> The most popular policies are calling on all states to suspend taxes on groceries (68% selected), cracking down on overcharging by hospitals (66%), starting a congressional committee to hold hearings on and investigate price gouging and overcharging by corporations (63%), requiring public utilities to cut rates for electricity (63%), reducing the deficit by cutting spending (62%), and prosecuting price gougers (61%).

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#194

Post by bequanna »

mistrial9 wrote: post #71
bequanna wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, housing needs to mostly be handled by the private sector if we want high quality. Government housing should absolutely exist, but only as a safety net as their management is incredibly inefficient. Private housing isn’t the issue here: collusion is. Collusion should generally not be tolerated in a well regulated capitalist system.

there are massive and documented scandals at the US Federal level with the departments assigned to regulate and serve those markets (HUD etc).. an easy and relevant start is the Savings and Loan collapse of the 80s, directly on top of mortgage monies

I don’t disagree but not sure what point you’re trying to make here.

Problems with regulation are the expected consequence of living in the real world and not a model. They should be fixed and we can do better.

I just don’t see how any of this leads us to more regulation. More government control means less efficiency and likely MORE corruption.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#195

Post by Alupis »

tacticalturtle wrote: post #179
Alupis wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s a problem when every town/municipality thinks like this, and then larger state- wide governments are faced with the dilemma of an angry voting population tired of high housing costs. You can either get ahead of a state-wide solution and implement something where you have some control that works for your community, or you can do nothing and wait for the state government to begin to remove zoning from local contro…

High rent costs are not something a town/municipality can solve. In a most ways, it's also something a state government cannot solve.

"High" rent is relative to the area, and rent is high across the entire country currently.

Lack of rental housing drives up rental prices. The lack of rental housing is largely due to unnaturally low interest rates. People qualified for oversized loans, and bought up the rental supply, converting them into homes instead.

Since cash was easy to acquire via loans, this resulted in an unprecedented period of time where housing prices were driven upwards with near-zero limiting factor. That was the market where people were overbidding asking-price by $50K+ without even seeing the house... that was/is a very unnatural market. This bidding process resulted in significantly overvalued homes, which made them inaccessible to lower-income people. So the rental market shrunk significantly, and housing prices went through the roof... then runaway inflation came knocking, making everything that much worse.

Which is to say, all of this is the creation of poor federal policy, and there isn't much your state or city can do about it.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#196

Post by dwaltrip »

andrew_eu wrote: post #176
bogwog wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're over analyzing and confusing things. Price fixing is when competitors work together to raise prices above what they would normally be in a competitive market. Using your gas station example, a gas station isn't going to look at a competitor selling gas at $4.15 and decide to raise their price to $4.45. They would lower their price to match the competition, otherwise they'd lose sales and make less mone…

The analogy also works in the opposite direction. If a gas station is selling at $4.10 a gallon and another down the street is selling at $4.15, the first gas station could happily up their price to $4.14. 1% more revenue and they're still the cheapest on the block.

And if there is a third also selling at $4.10? Unless they privately coordinate and collude, its hard for this to work for artificial price increases.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#197

Post by switch007 »

Alupis wrote: post #123
switch007 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll totally accept you're speaking just in the context of the USA but... > The fact that some people actually truly believe "free government housing" is going to be "decent" is absolutely tragic Council houses are fairly highly regarded in the UK (i.e. the property, in terms of space, light, build quality. The estates/tenants, not so much...). They also have a track record of maintaining them far better than private…

Wikipedia indicates most of these Council Homes were built in the early 1900's - and are not modern construction. An additional average of a around 100 homes total were built per year from the 40's through 1980. So these don't appear to be helping a significant portion of the population. Wikipedia also indicates in the 1970's the UK government dramatically and suddenly cut back on funding for these homes (among other…

I note you don't link to your sources. You need better sources and/or better research skills. 100 per year is way off. Have you confused 100 with 100,000? I think even that is low

Yes the Conservatives stopped building council homes, mostly through neoliberal ideology that the government shouldn't provide housing. The private market houses are far worse quality

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#198

Post by ZoomerCretin »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #193
ZoomerCretin wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I support price regulation when called for. Your hyperbole is...not congruent with reality, considering the incredible agriculture subsidies provided and automobile tariffs. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/08/economists... https://www.ncsl.org/financial-services/price-gouging-state-... https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... From a paid Matt Stoller BIG ( https://thebignewslette…

>I support price regulation when called for. Your hyperbole is...not congruent with reality, considering the incredible agriculture subsidies provided and automobile tariffs.

The outrageous profiteering in food and groceries is not with the hyper-subsidized agriculture industry that grows food and raises livestock, but up the supply chain in the middle-men who buy this to process and package it (especially meatpacking). Consumers, farmers, and grocers would all be served if the monopolies that absorb massive food profits were busted.

> Something real is going on. In individual markets, CEOs have been bragging publicly that they are restraining production to increase prices. Profit margins in the food industry jumped during Covid and haven’t come back down. Or take rent. There’s a company called RealPage that works with the biggest corporate landlords to hold apartments empty so they can increase prices, which jumped up 11% in 2022. There’s some evidence of conspiracy around pricing in virtually every industry. Turkey, poultry, and pork. Frozen french fries. PVC pipe. Anesthesiology. Oil. Ammunition. Pharmaceuticals. K-Pop. Credit bureaus and FICO, Verisign, industrial gasses, architectural software, locks, entertainment data. Homebuilders. Garden chemicals. Defense and aerospace. Ticketing. Estate Sales. Gaming. Drug wholesaling. Work ID information. Seeds and chemicals.

Sounds like the real solution to this problem is the same solution to the housing market: Too many laws preventing new entrants, which prevents natural competition from lowering prices.

The problem is the needless and protectionist laws and regulations. If you want to see the effectiveness of monopoly regulation, look at California's PG&E vs Texas' deregulated electricity provider market. Californians are paying outrageous bills, meanwhile Texans have their choice of paying different electricity providers, and thus have much lower electric rates.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#199

Post by [deleted] »

Alupis wrote: post #195
tacticalturtle wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a problem when every town/municipality thinks like this, and then larger state- wide governments are faced with the dilemma of an angry voting population tired of high housing costs. You can either get ahead of a state-wide solution and implement something where you have some control that works for your community, or you can do nothing and wait for the state government to begin to remove zoning from local contro…

High rent costs are not something a town/municipality can solve. In a most ways, it's also something a state government cannot solve. "High" rent is relative to the area, and rent is high across the entire country currently. Lack of rental housing drives up rental prices. The lack of rental housing is largely due to unnaturally low interest rates. People qualified for oversized loans, and bought up the rental supply,…

[deleted]

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#200

Post by consteval »

bluGill wrote: post #184
consteval wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think being a landlord is pretty much the easiest business ever. As compared to real businesses, who really produce products and really participate in competitive markets.

Landlord is about luck of the tenants. A bad tenant will destroy your property costing you a lot of money. A bad tenant will not pay thus forcing you to have your property earning nothing for months until you can legally evict them. If you don't have enough tenants you lose money because you still have to pay your costs (the bank for your loan, maintenance...). You can make a lot of money but it isn't easy money. (pa…

Easy, you outsource your tenant management to a company that does that sort of thing. There's many highly reliable methods to get good tenants. Outsourcing to a company that specializes in that works because you're already making free money by being a landlord, so now you just make less free money.
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