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An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

cybernetic.dev

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Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#191

Post by jwr »

felipefar wrote: post #135

Low UI density is the new emperor's clothes in modern UI design. It's being actively promoted by companies in order to cut design costs, but the truth is that it's only reasonable on touch interfaces or casual apps. Mouse interfaces are fundamentally different, because you have much more pointing precision, so it pays off to show more data on the screen. You don't have to cram your interface with with spaces to make…

> Low UI density is the new emperor's clothes in modern UI design

I design, develop and maintain an ERP-style application with lots of tables. The fashions in UI design have made my life much more difficult over the last decade.

The problem is that designers tend to follow fashion trends. And the trend over the last decade has been "lightweight! clean! lots of space!". This is great if you are making a landing page, not so great if you need to display lots of data.

Google made things worse with its terrible UI design, which people accepted as mantra. Yes, there is lots of white. Your screen will mostly display… space. But just try using the Google Ads interface: it doesn't even fit in a normal browser, you need to have an extra-wide window just to see stuff in the tables. Not to mention they keep redesigning it, and every new update is hated by the customers, as well as by Google people (I've been told by Google ads consultants how to switch to the older interface, "which they all use because the new one is worse").

Another problem which compounds the situation for me is that designing tables is not cool. So, UI designers (and self-proclaimed UX experts) will "obsess" over every pixel in iOS-style switches that for some reason have replaced checkboxes, writing blog posts about how things are misaligned, while tables are left as an afterthought. Take a look at all modern UI toolkits: you will find very few with good tables, and likely not a single one with dense tables.

Oh, and on the functionality front: JavaScript libraries like DataTables are great for simple things, but are nowhere near a complete solution for complex apps.

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#192

Post by petre »

panta wrote: post #168
elschneider wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a fundamental difference depending on what kinds of users you are targeting and how often they're using your app. Blender is a prime example of software for professionals, that are also willing the spend a considerable amount of time on learning the UI. A lot of software is not targeting a similar audience and should limit cognitive overload.

I'm constantly frustrated by software that tries to limit cognitive overload. Stop treating your users as if they were cognitively impaired. In other words, write a software that also an idiot can use, and only idiots will want to use it.

They’re the ones asking for it. Release an application with dense UI today and the clients will quickly dismiss it because the market wants to do things as easily as possible with a few clicks - instant gratification. They want a language - computer interface, like Google’s Assistant, but one that works. This is why everybody pushes AI features: the promise of Clippy doing the work for you.

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#193

Post by stoperaticless »

dagw wrote: post #185
sulandor wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe oversimplified: things on screen take effort. less things, less effort

Deciding what not to put on the screen takes at least as much effort as adding things to the screen.

I sense that you have in mind something like

> Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

That is the right reaction to over-complicated baroque creations.

Important to note, that oversimplification is possible. (There is point at which removal is no longer benefitial)

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#194

Post by SanderNL »

jorvi wrote: post #188
panta wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly frustrated by software that tries to limit cognitive overload. Stop treating your users as if they were cognitively impaired. In other words, write a software that also an idiot can use, and only idiots will want to use it.

I have had the (dis)pleasure of watching my 60yr old mother having to re-learn the entire administrative part of her healthcare job three times over and deeply struggle because the insurance suits decided a new software package was needed. Nothing humbles you more as a dev than seeing a layman struggle through an interface, getting increasingly frustrated and desperate because she can’t find the button she needs due…

This anti-learning attitude is common, but I don’t find it admirable.

To me this is like a dev saying “screw Git, I just want to do console.log(). All this complexity is sabotaging my productivity.”

Modern jobs, even health care, require learning about and managing complexity. It’s not just “taking care of people”. Throwing your hands up and saying “I’m old”, which is a lousy excuse because I know plenty able old people and completely digitally illiterate young people, is not a viable solution.

Now, whether we want that as a society is another topic. But for the foreseeable future adapting to complexity and actually taking the time to sit down and learn this shit is IMO the only way forwards.

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#195

Post by wruza »

g15jv2dp wrote: post #123
wruza wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. This is not true. Mobile platforms do help with tapping on small elements. E.g. HN isn't mobile friendly "as is", but I have no issues with tapping any of the links. I've also used Exante mobile trading terminal for some time and had no issues with it either. I agree that accessibility still is the concern, but watching my grandma struggle with her tablet, it's mostly the fact that buttons aren't buttons and ever…

> This is not true. Mobile platforms do help with tapping on small elements. E.g. HN isn't mobile friendly "as is", but I have no issues with tapping any of the links. I've also used Exante mobile trading terminal for some time and had no issues with it either. Good for you, maybe your phone screen is huge. I routinely tap on the wrong element when using HN on mobile. Even on desktop I have to set the zoom level to 1…

4.7" iphone. They enlarge tap regions for tappable elements since forever, so you can’t miss.

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#197

Post by treyd »

jorvi wrote: post #188
panta wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly frustrated by software that tries to limit cognitive overload. Stop treating your users as if they were cognitively impaired. In other words, write a software that also an idiot can use, and only idiots will want to use it.

I have had the (dis)pleasure of watching my 60yr old mother having to re-learn the entire administrative part of her healthcare job three times over and deeply struggle because the insurance suits decided a new software package was needed. Nothing humbles you more as a dev than seeing a layman struggle through an interface, getting increasingly frustrated and desperate because she can’t find the button she needs due…

Both of your and the parent's points are true at the same time.

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#198

Post by sulandor »

dagw wrote: post #185
sulandor wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe oversimplified: things on screen take effort. less things, less effort

Deciding what not to put on the screen takes at least as much effort as adding things to the screen.

rhetorical relation but i agree that minimalism is a worthy goal.

though, excessive white-space does not really scratch the "efficient interface" itch

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#199

Post by perching_aix »

Nathanael_M wrote: post #125
perching_aix wrote: post #46

the experiment fails pretty hard on my phone where i have js turned off by default :p

I suspect it would also fail if you tried it on Internet Explorer 6.

probably, although i feel keeping js turned off by default when browsing random sites is infinitely better motivated than using internet explorer 6

Re: An experiment in UI density created with Svelte

#200

Post by KronisLV »

hk__2 wrote: post #172
panta wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly frustrated by software that tries to limit cognitive overload. Stop treating your users as if they were cognitively impaired. In other words, write a software that also an idiot can use, and only idiots will want to use it.

> I'm constantly frustrated by software that tries to limit cognitive overload. Stop treating your users as if they were cognitively impaired. In other words, write a software that also an idiot can use, and only idiots will want to use it. I disagree. I’ve been using IntelliJ for a few years now, and the new, simplified interface has made my experience a lot better. IMHO you should limit the cognitive overload but e…

> I disagree. I’ve been using IntelliJ for a few years now, and the new, simplified interface has made my experience a lot better.

I work on a bunch of enterprise projects and therefore am sticking with the old design, because having more features available at a glance while also fitting as much of the code on screen as possible is definitely nice to have, in addition to my already established habits and knowledge of the UI.

But the new UI? It's also really sleek and pleasant, and a joy to use in the cases where I've toggled over to it. Plus, the fact that they worked on adding a compact mode to the new UI is also great to see! Definitely a good experience in my eyes.

I think the trick is in giving the user the choice on what to use, if there's no horrible incompatibility between the various iterations of something. For example, the day when the old Reddit UI (old.reddit.com) stops working is also the day when a bunch of people will stop hanging around the place. The problem is that companies often find the additional support needed to be a hassle and just optimize for the majority of users, not all of them - much the same how many games out there don't even have a Linux or Mac release, even in cases where the popular game engines make having one pretty easy!

The parent comment above yours is perhaps a bit more mean than it should be, though.

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