New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#191

Post by scott_s » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:38 PM UTC

gouranga wrote: post #188

scott_s wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also add the majority of computer science researchers that I know to that list. As I said in reply to your parent comment, please read the guidelines here. We appreciate civility. If you keep it up, you will eventually be hellbanned.

Oh I agree entirely. The intent was to mock the comment about suitability for a task. Sometimes it is appropriate to do so to convey a point. My sincerest apologies if such an approach is offensive.

Being offensive is a secondary concern. The primary concern is that you failed to communicate your point. Even re-reading your comments, I cannot see any indication of sarcasm; I see no indication that you agree with my point that many people who do useful work related to computing use Macbooks.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#192

Post by ctdonath » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:39 PM UTC

briguyd wrote: post #139

jwr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need for profanity. Why the strong emotions? To make a laptop this small and thin with this much stuff inside, you have to get rid of certain elements. Before calling people names I'd suggest you check if it is at all possible to fit two (you'd want TWO, right?) SODIMM slots in the space available. Same goes for the battery — when I saw the first pictures of the internals, I said "well, they finally got rid of the…

And what am I supposed to do if I don't want to spend $2200 on a computer that only lasts me two years? My laptops usually last me 3-4 years, at least, after a hard drive and RAM upgrade, as well as a new battery.

My laptops usually last me 3-4 years, at least, after a hard drive and RAM upgrade, as well as a new battery.

New hard drive. New RAM. New battery. Probably want a new CPU, but that's not upgradable. Ditto display. Can't add Thunderbolt, USB3, or whatever nifty new interface.

May as well just get a new computer at the 2+ year point, seeing as you replaced half of it and want to replace the other half.

"This here's a good axe. It's had nine handles and three heads."

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#193

Post by trebor » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

Well, I won't buy a system that isn't upgradeable. Developers have needs that scale faster than a consumer, and if I can't upgrade my RAM ... forget it.

Though with 8GB RAM and an SSD, the CPU has suddenly become my slow-point.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#194

Post by tincansandtwine » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #116

gouranga wrote: post #84

Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned. My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sittin…

Making components replaceable increases volume, weight, and cost. If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA R…

Specifically in reply to the battery: I work in an enterprise environment where Macs make up about 50-60% of the installed machines. Of these, about 30-40% are laptops. In my experience, Mac laptop batteries have a high rate of failure, higher than our significantly more dated PC hardware. With the most recent revs, replacing the battery has become a huge problem, since relatively new hardware (1-2 years old) is now completely shot, unless we buy a proprietary screwdriver (not a big deal, but every time they change the screw, we have to find a shop that sells it), or send it to a Mac repair shop. Now, if we upgrade to the Retina Macbook Pro, we will not have the considerably cheaper and faster option of replacing it ourselves. Unfortunately, our userbase is such that they "require" Mac hardware, so it puts IT in a rough position (having to explain why we're essentially outsourcing our work, and spending money to do so).

Now, this isn't necessarily a typical case, but if you were a regular consumer and your battery died, it isn't that hard to buy a replacement battery for the majority of laptops, though this kind of thing is becoming more prevalent. I would also like to mention that it's not just Apple (I'm looking at you, Ultrabooks), though I would say that they are the trendsetter.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#195

Post by primitur » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

gouranga wrote: post #84

Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned. My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sittin…

I'm with you, at least as far as the consumerism is concerned. Maybe we are all fucking idiots, somehow, some way, but I tend to think if you've got a computer in front of you, whatever you're doing, you're in a mighty fine privilege. All computers have incurred their debt upon the planet; to dispose of a computing device because it is 'slow' is an ultimate failure to comprehend the nature of computing: the user makes a decision to use, or not use, arbitrarily.

I have a couple Toughbooks from the 90's, I'll probably never throw them away, but instead keep using them for more years yet, because: fully user upgradable.

http://www.google.com/search?q=panasonic+toughbook+cf25&...

Though slow by 'modern standards', they are still perfectly usable computers, still quite adequate for most needs, which haven't really changed terribly much. Slow-ass Pentium 133's with a nice, tight, Linux distribution, no driver worries whatsoever, and workable for my needs. One is an offline Wikipedia/Doc-dump that can be easily road-tripped, powered from a cross-bike battery, chucked up the cliff and so on, and the other is a general-purpose debug device for various embedded projects back in the lab, where-in such things as standard serial and parallel ports are still .. a bit useful ..

You know why these computers are still in use? They kick ass.

3 Open PCMCIA slots per device. Magnesium-Alloy cases that take a real beating, and can yet still be opened with a coin, in case you want to put a different component into the gel-protected insides. In the lab-bench toughbook there is room for its disk as well as various shields, arduinos, proto pcb's, and so on. It functions very nicely as a carry case in that regard, too: I have room for my DS-one scope, when I need it.

Oh, its got standard strap mounts as in I can take one off a gun and strap the toughbook behind me as I ride off into the desert.

If Apple ever make something like this, i.e. the complete other end of the spectrum, I would be very surprised. There are places, though, an iPad and a Macbook and an iMac and an iPod .. well maybe my iPod would fit along the DS-1 .. but anyway, there are places that the 'elite delicate consumer electronics' can't go.

My point is, there are alternatives to the Macbook cult.

Apple don't have ANYTHING that competes with the toughbook in terms of user servicibility, but then: that is another arbitrary choice being made by the Apple Super-power. Apple is so big now that if it decides to build a walled-garden, then such shall the field grow. If they WANTED to make a computer that could seriously benefit future generations, it wouldn't be out-dated in a decade, or two decades, or even three. It'd be useful for a Century.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#196

Post by mark_l_watson » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:42 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #116

gouranga wrote: post #84

Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned. My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sittin…

Making components replaceable increases volume, weight, and cost. If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA R…

+1 I am with you on this. Although I have a MacBook Pro as a hot backup, I do all of my work and writing using a 13" MacBook Air. For me it is a commodity device that I have no interest in upgrading. If it breaks, a new one can be configured using a Time Machine backup while I enjoy a cup of coffee.

Life used to be different: I spent a lot of time with extensible PCs, tweaking and running Linux, etc. I have come to realize that this "fun" had an opportunity cost that I am no longer willing to pay.

I also tend to replace Apple gear more often but it is easy to find relatives or friends who appreciate being given slightly outdated gear.

I like having an easily replaceable commodity laptop in sort of the same way I like server assets sold like electricity (e.g., AWS, Heroku, AppEngine).

Ultimately time is the most precious resource. The older I get the more I care about using it wisely.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#197

Post by kamaal » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

stouset wrote: post #148

super_mario wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Sometimes your processes are not CPU bound at all, sometimes they are I/O bound. Sometimes in RAM caches can increase performance quite a bit etc. This means swapping HDD and putting faster SSD is enough to speed certain things up. Also, updating RAM only is enough to speed things u…

> Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. The elitism here is just disgusting. I suppose all the graphic designers, photographers, programmers, and even just plain old novice users who love Apple products should just pack their bags and go back to pencils and paper. After all, if they're not doing any kind of serious comp…

Its not elitism.

Apple is trying very hard to convert a computer into a washing machine. Which is, giving it a specific use, like a TV or a refrigerator and tightly controlling everything behind that use.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#198

Post by stouset » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:44 PM UTC

gouranga wrote: post #105

biafra wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The battery is easily replaceable. If you know how to use a screwdriver. Is that too much to ask?

Err, it's glued in which is considerably worse: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ... Actually, looking through the entire teardown, I think the battery being glued in is worse than anything as levering it out is likely to cause the Li-Ion cells to blow up. Also consider how hard it is recycling that machine! Their summary: 1. Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to a…

> 1. Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside.

Well, there's not much inside for a normal user to replace any more.

> 2. As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.

Just like CPUs and graphics cards have been for years.

> 3. The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.

External drive, bro. It's an effing superportable laptop. Do you really need your entire 200GB porn collection available to you at all times?

> 4. The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.

There is no battery removal process. And you know what? That's okay! I'm over 2 years in on my 2010 MacBook Pro, and checking the battery right now I see its designed capacity was 6,000mAh while its current, fully-charged capacity is… 5,786mAh. The sky has steadfastly refused to fall, and the four horsemen have failed to ravage the countryside.

> 5. The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.

Wow! If an expensive thing fails expensively, it's expensive! Please tell me how this situation is any different than for dozens of other devices you currently possess, including your HDTV display and the engine in your car.

> The whole machine is a joke. PLEASE DON'T BUY ONE!

Your whole post is a joke. If the machine doesn't meet your own personal criteria, that's awesome. But you appear to be taking it personally if other people have a different metric of value. Chill out, for fuck's sake.

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#199

Post by mironathetin » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:47 PM UTC

super_mario wrote: post #124

ctdonath wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making components replaceable increases volume, weight, and cost. If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA R…

Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Sometimes your processes are not CPU bound at all, sometimes they are I/O bound. Sometimes in RAM caches can increase performance quite a bit etc. This means swapping HDD and putting faster SSD is enough to speed certain things up. Also, updating RAM only is enough to speed things u…

"Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing."

Yeah,... Astro-Physicist here. 90% of my colleagues use Macs and we write most of the software that controls satellites and earth bound observatories on Macs.

Just an old science, entertainment, with no real or useable results :o).

Re: New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

#200

Post by kamaal » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

idspispopd wrote: post #182

JackC wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. This is true. I for one do all my computing with a goofy grin on my face, while riding a unicycle. In all seriousness, this product will be perfect for me. The lower weight will help with my unicycling, and the 4-core i7 will look great with my butterfly wings.

You're having an argument with a bunch of InstantExperts™ who are clearly motivated by other sources or tied to luddite ideologies. They're more interested in presenting Apple as an evil empire because this fits their personal objectives. Since the overwhelming bulk of computer users(including pro users) have no interest in fiddling with their computer specs post purchase, Apple are simply making a product that fits…

>>Since the overwhelming bulk of computer users(including pro users) have no interest in fiddling with their computer specs post purchase, Apple are simply making a product that fits the market.

No one here is saying we tear down our laptops and assemble them back three times a day. But if something like a RAM gets toast on my machine, I would like to get that replaced instead of replacing the whole machine.

Why, you might ask. Its because it works out cheaper that way. And besides, I don't throw away my car if some thing little goofs up! Why should I throw away my computer.