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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#191

Post by randomdata »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #31
guilhas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So our evolved consciousness will be superior to other animals that still eat other animals

Other animals don't raise billions of other animals to cram them into factory farms, deprive them of natural surroundings, pump them full of hormones and antibiotics and then send them off to slaughterhouses to turn them into burgers and other meat products. Animals live with nature. We don't. We created our own world on top of the natural world, which we are slowly destroying. We have the brains, skills and resource…

> Other animals don't raise billions of other animals to cram them into factory farms

Sure they do. For example, certain ants are known to keep livestock.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#192

Post by epgui »

delecti wrote: post #110
panarky wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you prove that another person is conscious? Could you prove that you are conscious?

I can prove that I am conscious, at least to my satisfaction, because I can think the thought "I am conscious". Outward behavior of other humans also proves to my satisfaction that they're conscious. And when interacting with animals, I see many of the same qualities that lead me to believe other people are conscious, with the difference largely being a matter of degree.

Before you can prove anything about consciousness, even "to your satisfaction" or in relation to yourself, you would need to propose a clear and unambiguous definition of it.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#193

Post by randomdata »

etrautmann wrote: post #116
aspyct wrote: post #115

Sorry, why is this even a research? It's uh... pretty obvious they are conscious.

In what way would be possible assume that animals are not conscious? It's such a bizarre question

Most philosophers have assumed that animals are conscious. Science, however, cannot assume – fundamentally. This comes from the science side of life.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#194

Post by mbfg »

I can't say this is backed by anything, i don't know, but my gut feel is humans are somewhat different in that they have developed language both spoken and written to such an extent, that now there is a constant journaller as part of most people's minds documented everything we do, feel, think. This journaller basically happens autonomously, without direction. This journalling mechanism, i think, is what most people consider consciousness.

I suspect we fool ourselves into thinking this journaller has any control over our situation and so we give it more value than it has. I don't see how it would give us free will, for instance. But it is a powerful illusion, none the less.

I've had lots of dogs, horses, cats, and think they all are on the consciousness spectrum, but i'm guessing (couldn't possibly know) that they lack this constant overarching journaller in their brains. For species that have a richer communication, i still don't think they would have this... I think the need to write down language, and make it available to others asynchronously plays a part in it.

Interestingly, some people report that they have no such journaller, or sometimes called inner voice that talks to them. I have no way to know what it's like to be them, or if my understanding of what they are saying is indeed what they are saying, but if true, i wonder if these folks are more like what other animals feel in their heads. I have no clue. Frankly, i can't imagine that someone wouldn't have a journaller in their heads, and so it's even hard for me to imagine. I assume i just don't understand.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#195

Post by [deleted] »

poikroequ wrote: post #6

The trouble I have with much of this discussion is it assumes many traits of animal behavior are indicative of consciousness. Bees play with balls, therefore consciousness? You can't just jump straight to that conclusion. There is so much our brains do that is subconscious, that we are not aware of. Heck, even signs of self awareness may not be indicative of consciousness. Arguably we are at the point that we could t…

[deleted]

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#196

Post by cupcakecommons »

p_j_w wrote: post #185
cupcakecommons wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. I would guess he woke up and that this was subsequent to him forming memories again. Memory seems to be a requirement for the kind of self-referential conscious experience that appears to be basically unique to humans. An anesthetic that acts entirely on memory formation and paralyzes the body is in many ways the ideal anesthetic. It's not super unlikely this is how many anesthetics work to at least s…

>There is no suffering in the now, suffering requires a self which requires memory. If there's no suffering in the now, then how can one remember that one suffered?

I don't think there's a way define suffering without invoking contextualized pain and an entity that suffers (a self). A self is a complex phenomenon that has a bunch of additional requirements not least of which is the capacity for bridging multiple moments of sensory input that happen in the now.

One can remember that one suffered because one can experience pain in the now and bridge that into a context where the self exists. Selfing is the trick of consciousness, it's not necessarily the natural state of all creatures with sensory equipment or memory - it's an additional trick that only a handful of creatures have.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#197

Post by jemmyw »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #118
jemmyw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I believe this, but there could be an intelligence cliff where you get to a certain level and suddenly consciousness and self awareness appear. That is a mechanism where gradual change could lead to stepped differences.

There could, but then you would have to explain why some permutations of matter create a new dimension of sensation which previously didn't exist, which then has the ability to reach back into the dimension of matter and exert will on it (are we opening a wormhole to an alternate reality of the soulbots or something??).

I'll reiterate that I don't believe it to be the case that animals with smaller brains are not self-aware, but wanted to counter that it HAS to be a smooth gradient of level of consciousness between simpler and more complex brains. It can be stepped.

However, if it were the case, you don't need to explain it, only observe it. For example, I think we can say from observation that there needs to be a minimal complexity. n-neurons cannot be self aware and n+1 can. I'm sure it's not just the number, but you get the point. The gradient of self-awareness need not start at the gradient of intelligence, nor need it have the same slope.

I don't believe in non-physical explanations. We don't know the mechanism though, so we do actually do need to explain why some permutations of matter, as you put it, (i.e. the permutation in brains) has this sense, and others (matter in rocks, matter in computers?) does not. Although I'd think process, rather than just arrangement.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#198

Post by sitkack »

slibhb wrote: post #120
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

You just did it! You made the Tu Crowque fallacy.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#199

Post by slowmovintarget »

lolinder wrote: post #179
squigz wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't another explanation be that the dog thought the human literally didn't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

Frankly, as a parent of three I'm not at all convinced that human infants lack object permanence, much less adult dogs. I've never observed anything in my infants that would indicate they lost track of something's existence, and I've seen plenty of things that suggest the opposite. See also the section of that article entitled "Contradicting evidence".

As a parent also, I think it simply varies from child to child. There is a point in time between vision developing and object permanence being learned where peek-a-boo is absolutely magic.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#200

Post by sitkack »

throwup238 wrote: post #38

> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…

Bees even play! https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000334722...
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