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FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

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Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#191

Post by nickff »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #75

A few decades ago: I talked with a business man who said that the Chinese would absolutely perform to contract but no more. Early samples would be excellent, full production would be exactly and only what you asked for. Almost malicious compliance. I talked with a Chinese salesperson who said they always signed contracts with foreigners using their English name. Such contracts are unenforceable. Almost malicious comp…

It's difficult to enforce any international contract, particularly in a country like the People's Republic of China. That said, I don't think signing a contract with a different name gets you anywhere; if your counter-party can show that you signed the contract, or in a corporate context that someone who can reasonably have been presumed to have signing authority did so, you (or the company) is on the hook.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#192

Post by brookst »

1jbdg wrote: post #182
nucleardog wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FAA is constantly auditing, certifying and testing airmen, airplanes and plants. Are they? Much of the work that would be done to inspect and certify the planes being manufactured was outsourced to the manufacturers to increase efficiency. They build their planes, inspect their planes, inspect and approve modifications and major repairs to their planes, and issue their own airworthiness certificates for their p…

Seems like there is a lot of criticism of the FAA while ignoring real time cuts to their budget. Looking at 2005 they had 14bn, 22.5bn in today’s money. Last years budget was 18.5bn. I am sure there is waste and opportunities for improvement but… that ignores the significant increase in flights, new planes etc. that has ballooned much faster than the crude time value of money calc above. Criticising them for doing le…

We should separate two propositions: 1) whether or not the operations of the agency are too weighted toward ex post facto investigations and therefore, and 2) whether or not the people involved are competent and doing they best they can

It’s perfectly possible that the FAA has correctly optimized for the constraints they are under and the FAA is not sufficiently effective at delivering its charter.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#193

Post by crazygringo »

I'm curious if anyone suspects which is the more likely justification for the forged paperwork --

-- is it most likely lower-quality or wrong-quality titanium being passed off in an effort to fraudulently save money?

-- or is it probably the real deal, but stolen from a warehouse somewhere and the certificate is fraudulent merely to conceal that it was stolen?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#194

Post by filleduchaos »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #189
filleduchaos wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't describe this case at all though? It's more like you got your croissants but without a name brand or receipt.

> It's more like you got your croissants but without a name brand or receipt. No, because the structural integrity might not be there. A food analogy doesn't really work well, but the effect of mixing up different titanium manufacturing processes could easily be as extreme as having a completely different type of food. But much harder to test for!

Titanium is an elemental metal. You don't "manufacture" it so much as extract it, and like any other metal it has clear, known, rather easily testable qualities. So do its alloys.

The analogy didn't just not "really work well", it made zero sense. Like, in the first place a counterfeit of anything has to actually pass for the thing, and haggis most certainly does not pass as a croissant.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#195

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

Retric wrote: post #136

Critically the material is still titanium. Some of the paperwork is counterfeit so there’s concerns around quality control etc not what it is. > Spirit is trying to determine where the titanium came from, whether it meets proper standards despite its phony documentation, and whether the parts made from the material are structurally sound enough to hold up through the projected life spans of the jets, company official…

If the QC is unknown, then so is the metal.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#196

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

_moof wrote: post #164
Retric wrote: post #136

Critically the material is still titanium. Some of the paperwork is counterfeit so there’s concerns around quality control etc not what it is. > Spirit is trying to determine where the titanium came from, whether it meets proper standards despite its phony documentation, and whether the parts made from the material are structurally sound enough to hold up through the projected life spans of the jets, company official…

Unfortunately it's not enough for it to just be titanium. A hard alpha inclusion in an ingot used to make turbine blades was the root cause of the deaths of 112 people aboard United Airlines 232.

I disagree.

Poor design leading to the loss of all flight control surfaces in the event of an uncontained engine failure is what led to their deaths.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#197

Post by dgoodell »

_moof wrote: post #164
Retric wrote: post #136

Critically the material is still titanium. Some of the paperwork is counterfeit so there’s concerns around quality control etc not what it is. > Spirit is trying to determine where the titanium came from, whether it meets proper standards despite its phony documentation, and whether the parts made from the material are structurally sound enough to hold up through the projected life spans of the jets, company official…

Unfortunately it's not enough for it to just be titanium. A hard alpha inclusion in an ingot used to make turbine blades was the root cause of the deaths of 112 people aboard United Airlines 232.

Technically it was in the fan disc, and not a turbine blade. And while there was a defect, a big part of the problem was that an inspector most likely missed a crack during overhaul. The crack was present at a previous inspection, which they knew because there some fluorescent penetrant remaining in the defect.

I worked in a turbine engine component repair shop for 8 years. We had an NDT inspector fall asleep a lot in his booth and miss cracks. I’m pretty sure they ended up firing him. But maybe not as quick as they should have.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#198

Post by kube-system »

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #196
_moof wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it's not enough for it to just be titanium. A hard alpha inclusion in an ingot used to make turbine blades was the root cause of the deaths of 112 people aboard United Airlines 232.

I disagree. Poor design leading to the loss of all flight control surfaces in the event of an uncontained engine failure is what led to their deaths.

> The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the inadequate consideration given to human factors limitations 1n the inspection and quality control procedures used by United Airlines' engine overhaul facility which resulted in the failure to detect a fatigue crack originating from a previously undetected metallurgical defect located in a critical area of the stage 1 fan disk that was manufactured by General Electric Aircraft Engines.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#199

Post by robocat »

carabiner wrote: post #81
JSDevOps wrote: post #3

How the fuck do you counterfeit titanium it’s one of those things that is either or it’s not.

What is it with SWE's and binary thinking? No, titanium and any metal alloy is a huge spectrum of materials. There are thousands of steels, aluminums and so on.

> What is it with SWE's and binary thinking?

That looks like a binary split (All SWEs think in binary) therefore you are a SWE and should answer your own question.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#200

Post by kube-system »

K0balt wrote: post #190
lazyeye wrote: post #160

Ive often wondered whether poor quality counterfeit parts are being inserted into the supply chain as a form of industrial sabotage by competitors (including nation-states).

This is a well known exploit, and is proven effective in times of conflict. I think it is safe to assume that such efforts are ongoing in many corners of the world at any given time.

So well known that it's just openly published:

https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/...

e.g.:

> In tempering steel or iron, apply too much heat, so that the resulting bars and ingots are of poor quality.

> Mix good parts with unusable scrap and rejected parts.

> Misfile essential documents.

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