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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#191

Post by tptacek »

racional wrote: post #190
tptacek wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... or, as we've talked about before, the bold, decisive actions of people throughout every MENA country who expelled their own Jewish populations in the wake of the 1948 war --- those specific people are the core of the right wing in Israel.

Hate to point this out -- but this really is just whataboutism, here. The MENA expulsions (which we have already acknowledged) didn't have anything to do either with Nakba '48 or the expulsions of Palestinians in other countries in subsequent years. Let alone with the topic of subthread we've all jumped in at here. (Which started with the Nakba after all; I didn't introduce it to make some broader moral point).

I thought about what you said. I don't think this is whataboutism. The people most responsible for the policies you most disapprove of in Israel are precisely the people who were victims of reprisal pogroms and ethnic cleansings in other countries.

I don't think my thesis is "Israel is right". My awareness of Israel started with them killing that activist with a bulldozer, and didn't go better places from there. I'm guessing we 80% agree about Israel.

I think my thesis is "no simple argument about Israel or Palestine will ever be true". Which is, to me, kind of fascinating, if you can get past the horror, which I understand people (on both sides) not being able to do. Also: I sound like a Bond villain right now.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#192

Post by weatherlite »

racional wrote: post #188
weatherlite wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Nakba is on going according to you, you're not even talking about 1948. Whatever.

So the Nakba is on going You're catching on! The Nakba is as fresh as ever. Just ask these folks -- who are definitely in a position to know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975 As the Minister for Foreign Affairs instructs us: "Remember 48". And he sure ain't kidding. It is all very much an ongoing process.

Right. I can find a collection of quotes by current and previous Palestinian leaders that make them appear to be a bunch of genocidal, religious fanatics and holocaust deniers. But I'm not gonna do that because the day is short and I'm not sure what its going to achieve.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#193

Post by racional »

weatherlite wrote: post #192
racional wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Nakba is on going You're catching on! The Nakba is as fresh as ever. Just ask these folks -- who are definitely in a position to know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975 As the Minister for Foreign Affairs instructs us: "Remember 48". And he sure ain't kidding. It is all very much an ongoing process.

Right. I can find a collection of quotes by current and previous Palestinian leaders that make them appear to be a bunch of genocidal, religious fanatics and holocaust deniers. But I'm not gonna do that because the day is short and I'm not sure what its going to achieve.

The quotes were directly relevant to the topic that you raised.

The genocidal intent of the Nakba was as clear in 1948 as it is with the Nakba in its current form today.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#194

Post by racional »

tptacek wrote: post #191
racional wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to point this out -- but this really is just whataboutism, here. The MENA expulsions (which we have already acknowledged) didn't have anything to do either with Nakba '48 or the expulsions of Palestinians in other countries in subsequent years. Let alone with the topic of subthread we've all jumped in at here. (Which started with the Nakba after all; I didn't introduce it to make some broader moral point).

I thought about what you said. I don't think this is whataboutism. The people most responsible for the policies you most disapprove of in Israel are precisely the people who were victims of reprisal pogroms and ethnic cleansings in other countries. I don't think my thesis is "Israel is right". My awareness of Israel started with them killing that activist with a bulldozer, and didn't go better places from there. I'm…

The people most responsible for the policies you most disapprove of in Israel are precisely the people who were victims of reprisal pogroms and ethnic cleansings in other countries.

So ... if Palestinians are still going through what they're going today, at home or abroad, it's ultimately (or to large extent) a delayed result of the MENA expulsions, and the slight electoral tilt among the descendants of those affected (we're talking 2 full generations later, heading up on a 3rd by now) within Israeli electoral politics?

That is to say, ultimately an outgrowth of -- external antisemitism?

That's your thesis here?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#195

Post by idlewords »

tptacek wrote: post #189
tptacek wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree with you about this, and don't see the distinction you're trying to make. I am, in particular, responding to a comment --- from a commenter you agree with generally --- who himself referred to the Nakba as ongoing. Since this is just a rhetorical point, I don't think it's much worth arguing. I could come back at you with the Holocaust comparison, but what do we get out of that? So, I'm going t…

(themself, sorry)

The cherry on top of a museum-worthy thread.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#196

Post by weatherlite »

racional wrote: post #193
weatherlite wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I can find a collection of quotes by current and previous Palestinian leaders that make them appear to be a bunch of genocidal, religious fanatics and holocaust deniers. But I'm not gonna do that because the day is short and I'm not sure what its going to achieve.

The quotes were directly relevant to the topic that you raised. The genocidal intent of the Nakba was as clear in 1948 as it is with the Nakba in its current form today.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#197

Post by racional »

weatherlite wrote: post #196
racional wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quotes were directly relevant to the topic that you raised. The genocidal intent of the Nakba was as clear in 1948 as it is with the Nakba in its current form today.

[flagged]

So is it mutual acts of genocide between Palestinians/Arabs and Israelis?

Oh, absolutely. If the Nakba falls under the modern definition of genocide (as per the Convention), then the MENA expulsions and of course the Oct 7 pogrom do as well, in my view.

My intent is not to isolate blame on one side for this mess (which I see as ultimately symbiotic, the result of provocations by both sides). But to identify the common fabric between these events -- in the hopes of finding some way to stop if from continuing perpetually, ever forward.

Are Jews living through an ongoing holocaust now? Perhaps, since the term genocide lost all meaning why not.

Neither side is going through a true Holocaust in the sense of what happened to the European Jews (and certain other groups at the time), of course. We are very far from that, and I see your point here about a possible dilution of the term, and of the (nearly but not entirely unique) trauma and anguish related to those events (which I spent a certain phase of my life obsessively studying, BTW).

Again the overall intent is to identify sources of harm done to people, at scale and on the basis of group identity -- intended to diminish their numbers, destroy their spirit, and threaten their long-term survival as a people.

I just want it all to stop.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#198

Post by weatherlite »

racional wrote: post #197
weatherlite wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

So is it mutual acts of genocide between Palestinians/Arabs and Israelis? Oh, absolutely. If the Nakba falls under the modern definition of genocide (as per the Convention), then the MENA expulsions and of course the Oct 7 pogrom do as well, in my view. My intent is not to isolate blame on one side for this mess (which I see as ultimately symbiotic, the result of provocations by both sides). But to identify the commo…

Got it I see where you're coming from now, Its much more balanced than I thought previously.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#199

Post by racional »

weatherlite wrote: post #198
racional wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is it mutual acts of genocide between Palestinians/Arabs and Israelis? Oh, absolutely. If the Nakba falls under the modern definition of genocide (as per the Convention), then the MENA expulsions and of course the Oct 7 pogrom do as well, in my view. My intent is not to isolate blame on one side for this mess (which I see as ultimately symbiotic, the result of provocations by both sides). But to identify the commo…

Got it I see where you're coming from now, Its much more balanced than I thought previously.

Likewise + thank for clarifying.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#200

Post by weatherlite »

arp242 wrote: post #176
weatherlite wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For an example of how this can work, you can look at how the UK dealt with the IRA Did the IRA kill around ten thousands of Brits in one day and kidnapped a few thousands (I'm adjusting to population size here) ? Did the IRA have the sworn objective to eliminate England? Did the IRA join forces with another terrorist organization and a superpower bent on destroying England to encircle England from all directions an…

The circumstances of the catholic population in Northern Ireland was also significantly less extreme and dire. So if you want compare the scale of it then you also need to take that in to account. However, the more important issue is not to get distracted by these sort of things. We can tit-for-tat this endlessly and never get anywhere, and the only way to solve this is to move beyond that. That's what they did in NI…

> Hamas is ... right to protest the treatment of Palestinians.

The reality is much more nuanced and quite frankly contradictory to this simplistic viewpoint. What are Hamas' goals - some kind of peaceful solution or the violent destruction of Israel and expulsion of most Jews from the area? I tend to say the latter. Also, calling what Hamas did on October 7th 'protest' seems weird to me. It committed a massacre and knew damn well it was starting a war.

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