Coding interviews are stupid (ish) • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#191

Post by rsyring » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:46 PM UTC

We used four basic exercises during the first remote interview. Simple things like, "there is a number on each line of this text file. Find the sum of them."

This was an effective method to screen out applicants who didn't have the basic coding skills to align with their stated resume experience. And there were a decent number of these.

We did further development project exercises later in the process that took about 15 hours. We paid the candidates for this time, even those that didn't pass. It was also an effective screening tool.

All our exercises were very "real world." In the candidates own development environment and having been given instructions on how to prepare. They also have access to whatever Internet resources they want while doing the exercises. If they can't do the exercises, they can't do the job.

I know there are mixed opinions on this and I feel for candidates who have to invest a ton of time in exercises like this. But I can't imagine trying to hire without visibility into how they execute relatively basic software development tasks.

I think employers can and should structure the process so the time investment is minimal upfront and only increases as both parties have gotten to know each other and want to proceed.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#192

Post by spankalee » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:47 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #171

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #144

This was an interesting observation: > What I do know, however, is that for every 1-hour interview where I evaluated if someone knew their data structures, I could have just taught them. I don't really hear much about training. I doubt it's because we don't do it, but maybe it's not an interesting topic for discussion.

Sounds a bit delusional to me that you can just "teach someone data structures in 1 hour". Also the role specifics matter here. It might be ok to bring in a junior who needs lots of mentoring onboard. For a tech lead who is going to be driving the direction of a team, I'd expect them to be up to speed and autonomous very quickly.

It's not "teach someone data structures in 1 hour", but teach them the approach needed for that problem in 1 hour.

And it's a pretty insightful comment, because being able to be taught a practically useful algorithm, and use it on a question, in just an hour is a sign of a good candidate. Interviews should often be run just like that.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#193

Post by rockemsockem » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:49 PM UTC

teeray wrote: post #70

citizen_friend wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- licensing ensures only a minimum level of quality - people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling - licensed careers with high performers (lawyers, doctors, ib, etc) have other forms of filtering which are much more painful, like years of low pay internships Studying for a few weeks to solve fun puzzles to make 400k sounds like a deal to me.

> - licensing ensures only a minimum level of quality… people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling Agreed, I never asserted against these two points. The point of licensure is to make the first round, which is fairly routine at this point, more equitable and less susceptible to probabilistic effects. It also frees labor from administering this exam round to every candidate.

How often do other industries relicense? How often would you propose relicensing for programming jobs?

My concern would be skill atrophy between relicensing and then you'd still want to do the same sorts of interviews.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#194

Post by gwbas1c » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:50 PM UTC

> and then finally an interview with David Fullerton and Joel Spolsky

Joel Spolsky wrote the book on interviewing a software engineer: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/06/05/smart-and-gets-thi...

The book is a fun read, but it's easy to miss a very critical detail: A coding interview is supposed to demonstrate that a candidate is comfortable coding, not that a candidate can wrote memorize XYZ algorithm, or read your mind well enough to care about the corner cases that you care about.

I always give a lot of hints, and focus on that "we're having a discussion about code" when I interview a candidate. I don't expect a 100% right answer the first time, but I do expect a candidate to have a certain degree of intuition about how to program a computer.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#195

Post by rockemsockem » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:50 PM UTC

weezin wrote: post #125

citizen_friend wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still haven’t met the guy who is an algorithms genius who can’t program, but I can guarantee a license isn’t going to solve that problem.

Programming is a very small part of the battle of being an effective software engineer. It leaves out: - communicating - teaching - dealing with ambiguity - navigating politics - working cross-functionally Most high level individual contributors at large tech companies don't even code.

What makes you say they don't even code? In my experience coding is indeed drastically reduced, but high level ICs still regularly code.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#196

Post by phendrenad2 » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:51 PM UTC

Here's what nobody wants to admit: Software development is probably 10% engineering, 20% science, 20% putting blocks into holes ("when MICROSERVICE apply KAFKA"), and 50% arts & crafts. And we're just testing for the blocks-in-holes part.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#197

Post by cma256 » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:54 PM UTC

rsyring wrote: post #191

We used four basic exercises during the first remote interview. Simple things like, "there is a number on each line of this text file. Find the sum of them." This was an effective method to screen out applicants who didn't have the basic coding skills to align with their stated resume experience. And there were a decent number of these. We did further development project exercises later in the process that took about…

15 hours! You're hiring contractors not interviewing.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#198

Post by darrenkopp » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:57 PM UTC

MrDarcy wrote: post #185

darrenkopp wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not impossible to solve, but there are situations like that which make any solution not work, which was a follow up question

I came looking for how this could possibly be solved. Could you help me understand? If the input is infinite and unordered and the task is to produce output in order, how do you know when it’s OK to start writing output?

Sorry, I was paraphrasing the question and not giving every detail that I received. They also stated that there are no gaps, the values increment by one, and start at zero.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#199

Post by whimsicalism » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:57 PM UTC

rsyring wrote: post #191

We used four basic exercises during the first remote interview. Simple things like, "there is a number on each line of this text file. Find the sum of them." This was an effective method to screen out applicants who didn't have the basic coding skills to align with their stated resume experience. And there were a decent number of these. We did further development project exercises later in the process that took about…

Paid how much? 15 hours is over a thousand dollars - probably closer to 2 or more

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#200

Post by humansareok1 » Tue, May 07, 2024, 6:57 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #167

humansareok1 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ways every other field on earth interviews people? Do Surgeons need to perform mock surgeries before they are hired? Do Accountants need to complete a test audit? Do Lawyers perform a mock trial?

> Do Surgeons need to perform mock surgeries before they are hired? They must have a degree from an accredited institution before they can begin practicing, and part of earning the degree is operating on cadavers, so, yes. > Do Accountants need to complete a test audit? In order to be a Certified Public Account in the US, you must pass the Uniform Certified Public Accountant Examination, which has a section on auditi…

>They must have a degree from an accredited institution before they can begin practicing, and part of earning the degree is operating on cadavers, so, yes.

You know what I meant. You have merely created a series of strawmen. They don't need to perform a trial surgery every time they interview for a new job. The same goes for all my examples so nice try.