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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#191

Post by mulmen »

pkulak wrote: post #108
stevetodd wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

Well, hybrids sometimes get to replace the transmission with EV bits, like Toyota's system. Imagine an engine and exhaust system; now multiply the complexity by 100 and you have a modern transmission. Toyota hybrids (and GM/Chrystler/Honda) replace all that with a single planetary gearset, or with Honda, one clutch. Other systems, think Volvo, pop the EV bits in the back of the car and replace where the drive shaft u…

Modern transmissions can’t be two orders of magnitude more complicated than a modern ICE. If they are then I need to get into transmission design. An automatic transmission is basically just a series of planetary gears anyway. I would expect the marginal complexity between an ICE transmission and a hybrid transmission to be within a multiple of 2, but closer to parity. They’re both extremely reliable but an EV transmission (gearbox) will be even simpler.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#192

Post by ForOldHack »

fwungy wrote: post #90
bjornsing wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Is there a public spreadsheet or similar summarizing the most important properties of these new battery types? It takes forever to just research one of them in enough depth to understand their basic properties, and I’d like to compare many.

DOE puts out comparison papers at times, but I haven't looked in a while.

"The energy density of sodium ion batteries is low.It is only 100-150Wh/kg, while the energy density of lithium energy is 120-180Wh/kg. This means that for batteries of the same size, sodium-ion batteries can store much less energy than lithium-ion batteries.Jan 2, 2024"

https://www.dnkpower.com/will-sodium-batteries-replace-lithi...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#193

Post by margalabargala »

can16358p wrote: post #137

> can be procured through a reliable US-based domestic supply chain free from geopolitical disruption. The same cannot be said for common lithium-ion materials like cobalt and nickel. This is good... only for the US. The world doesn't need another industry where US solely is a monopoly.

The article is written from a US point of view.

Most other countries also have access to the relevant materials, since most countries are not landlocked.

Sodium battery production may pair nicely with desalination plants.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#194

Post by margalabargala »

jvdvegt wrote: post #104

So, with about 10.000 kg of these in my basement (2MWh capacity), I should be mostly self-sufficient? Nice! (4MWh electricity usage per year, with solar panels producing slightly more)

Why would you need storage for half of your annual electricity usage to be self-sufficient? It seems like you could achieve that with far, far less battery, perhaps combined with slightly more solar.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#195

Post by genewitch »

jvdvegt wrote: post #104

So, with about 10.000 kg of these in my basement (2MWh capacity), I should be mostly self-sufficient? Nice! (4MWh electricity usage per year, with solar panels producing slightly more)

i use between 1 and 2 MWh a month... Do you live underground and not have anything electronic? 1000KWh is 1MWh. I guess if one has all natural gas appliances and no need for air conditioning it's possible to get down to 333KWh a month.

i have owned and ran computers that used more than that a month, for goodness' sake.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#196

Post by mschuster91 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #177
mschuster91 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Manufacturers can't use the argument that it can't be done because it was common practice with Nokia 20 years ago. Nowadays more modern design practices will make that even easier to implement. The problem is water resistance. Your old Nokia (except the indestructible 3310) was dead if you managed to let it fall into water, most phones up until the end of the headphone jack had the same problem - and secure-boot st…

I don't know where this myth came from but there are many smartphones that are water resistant and with a user replaceable battery. One of the first in the mainstream was the Motorola Defy, there is also the Samsung Galaxy S5. Neither were particularly bulky. Interestingly the Galaxy S6, which followed the S5 was neither waterproof nor has a removable battery. I currently have one of the very few remaining smartphone…

> I don't know where this myth came from but there are many smartphones that are water resistant and with a user replaceable battery.

They do exist, but usually (at least for Samsung and CAT, I owned both brands) come at the cost of flimsy backplanes that come loose when falling and/or are prone to break off the tiny snaps when you need to access the SD/SIM card or battery.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#197

Post by Dylan16807 »

LoganDark wrote: post #154
Dylan16807 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher steady-state is mostly a good thing. You need to bulk up the power lines, but you're making good use of them and have lots of money to spend on them.

Having lots of money doesn't mean spending lots of money. Budgets often get cut for no good reason.

Okay, I mean I'm aware of that perfectly generic information but "sometimes management sucks" doesn't impact a feasibility analysis much. And this hypothetical station was already willing to spend on a lot on batteries.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#198

Post by eliaspro »

rockskon wrote: post #173
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lithium ion is the energy density?

Density doesn't really matter for stationary grid storage, where even slightly lower battery costs can easily outmatch higher space requirements.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#199

Post by papercrane »

jvdvegt wrote: post #104

So, with about 10.000 kg of these in my basement (2MWh capacity), I should be mostly self-sufficient? Nice! (4MWh electricity usage per year, with solar panels producing slightly more)

I don't think it's feasible to store your summer excess long term like that. It would be cheaper to add more panels to produce enough power in the winter and having enough battery capacity to last you a few days in case of bad weather.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#200

Post by Dylan16807 »

EasyMark wrote: post #158
gpm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just have the same batteries in the charging station to smooth out power usage? Seems a lot cheaper and operationally less complex than a gas station.

i doubt if the batteries can handle the type of surge output as the superchargers require.

If the car batteries can handle some amount of power, batteries on the other side can handle the same amount.

Especially because the station would want to have multiple cars worth of energy stored, which means the load is divided among more cells and they don't have to work nearly as hard.

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