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Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

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Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Counterstrike rank was always inversely correlated with my general happiness.

I remember being a young teenager (25 years ago now, yikes) playing counter strike and StarCraft all the time and being pretty good at both. I started playing with others who were in really good leagues (back then it was called cal-i for cs, not sure what exists now), and I realized the level of dedication and time necessary to compete at that level and I basically gave it up. Once you start thinking, “becoming bette…

I played against hardcore gamers and didn't bother. They may have cold head, but I have fun. I once though about playing games with cold head, but the idea is so ridiculous it didn't fly at all.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#192

This article annoys me to all ends. It started out badly by referring to autism as a disability, but it got worse in the fact that they’re assuming all of John’s symptoms are because he’s autistic. All of his disabilities can much easier be ascribed to brain damage post-partum. That hole in his heart meant he was getting less blood flow and less oxygen at a critical time in his brain development. The fact that both t…

Definitionally, at least in the US, Autism is a disability. It's a qualifier for the Americans with Disabilities Act. The specific definition: "A disability is a physical or mental impairment that makes it harder for a person to perform certain activities or interact with the world around them." For many ASD makes it harder to interact with the world around them, whether that's overstimulation, communication challeng…

Confusingly, in cardiology, ASD is a very common abbreviation for Atrial Septal Defect, i.e. a type of hole in the heart.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you this is helpful. The genetic part makes sense to me, my wife has PCOS and they have a history of ovarian problems in their family. There are studies linking PCOS and autism and to high levels of testosterone. The mystery to me was why they are so different.

Those studies were designed to confirm Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" theory (which, by the way, is a crock of shit). High androgen levels and high oestrogen levels are associated with autism (ref: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9 ) and there's no reason to believe the arrow of causality points in any particular direction. I recommend you not focus overmuch on why your kids are autist…

Would it be ok to ask how you're knowledgeable about this?

We have a four year old (almost five), who we think exhibits many of the traits associated with autism and/or ADHD. Since day 0 of his life, he has been "difficult". He could not breast feed. He screamed more than other babies. Loud sounds, any cold sensations, etc all bothered him extremely. We couldn't really live a normal life because he cried so much, all the time, everywhere. He still can't walk on cold floors barefoot. He is extremely emotional and volatile. The slightest thing that doesn't go according to plan will result in a hyper-ventillating breakdown. He is angry all the time. He has an obsessive need for answers and will not accept "we don't know". He has poor gross and micro motor skills. He can't ride a bike and we struggle to help him learn because if he does not get something immediately, then the extreme anger and breakdown occurs. His writing is poor.

However, on the other side, he can be exceptionally caring. He loves his close and extended family. He loves sitting on laps, chatting away. He can communicate well, no issues talking. In fact, he never shuts up and will always be wanting to communicate about something. This actually causes problems because he cannot help interrupting and cannot wait. He sleeps very well, far more easily than average.

So it is difficult for us. We're trying to get him seen and potentially diagnosed, so that we can hopefully learn strategies to help him live a happier life. But because he isn't "typically and obviously autistic" we're not getting a lot of traction to even get him seen.

(This is just a rough summary, there are more behaviours we're concerned about)

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#194

This article annoys me to all ends. It started out badly by referring to autism as a disability, but it got worse in the fact that they’re assuming all of John’s symptoms are because he’s autistic. All of his disabilities can much easier be ascribed to brain damage post-partum. That hole in his heart meant he was getting less blood flow and less oxygen at a critical time in his brain development. The fact that both t…

Definitionally, at least in the US, Autism is a disability. It's a qualifier for the Americans with Disabilities Act. The specific definition: "A disability is a physical or mental impairment that makes it harder for a person to perform certain activities or interact with the world around them." For many ASD makes it harder to interact with the world around them, whether that's overstimulation, communication challeng…

You appear to have invented your own definition of disability and put it in quotes. A google search for your quoted definition only turns up this very web page. Odd.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#195
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christian Scientists avoid almost all medical treatment, relying instead on Christian Science prayer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science#Healing_prac...

Have literally never heard of that. Is there any area where this is prominent?

Have you ever heard of the The Christian Science Monitor? It's a mostly-respectable newspaper (now website) published by The Christian Science Publishing Society, the publishing arm of the church.

Christian Science is very much a dying religion, and is not "prominent" anywhere so I'm not surprised that you never heard of them if you're young. The mother church is in Boston though.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twins can be born with the same genes (because they originated as a single embryo that split), or with different genes (they originated as two separately fertilized embryos). The former are considered identical twins even if you can tell them apart. They’re genetically identical, which scientists find useful in teasing out nature vs. nurture hypotheses. They especially like to compare them against twins with differen…

Isn’t it obvious they aren’t physically identical? They have the same genes but are not identical!

This is where English terms we use is very imprecise and can be confusing. English calls twins that were once the same zygote "identical" no matter what they look like or what happened after the zygote split.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those studies were designed to confirm Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" theory (which, by the way, is a crock of shit). High androgen levels and high oestrogen levels are associated with autism (ref: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9 ) and there's no reason to believe the arrow of causality points in any particular direction. I recommend you not focus overmuch on why your kids are autist…

Would it be ok to ask how you're knowledgeable about this? We have a four year old (almost five), who we think exhibits many of the traits associated with autism and/or ADHD. Since day 0 of his life, he has been "difficult". He could not breast feed. He screamed more than other babies. Loud sounds, any cold sensations, etc all bothered him extremely. We couldn't really live a normal life because he cried so much, all…

munksbeer, please have your child evaluated by a developmental pediatrician. It will take a number of visits and if you are in the U.S. and it will most likely not be covered by insurance, but it is vital in helping you get the support your child may need. I am autistic and so is my child, growing up was hard for me and it is hard for my child, but we are able to provide them with a lot more understanding and affordances to make their life better.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those studies were designed to confirm Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" theory (which, by the way, is a crock of shit). High androgen levels and high oestrogen levels are associated with autism (ref: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9 ) and there's no reason to believe the arrow of causality points in any particular direction. I recommend you not focus overmuch on why your kids are autist…

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I appreciate it, I read it to my wife and she agrees we should stop thinking about the why. It’s not so much that we want them to be normal or are particularly worried about that, we are very anxious though about what happens to them when we die and what abuse they might face.

I will interpret your gratitude as license to infodump. (I have many thoughts, and few parents-of-children to share them with.)

They're not going to be dependent on you their whole lives. They will be dependent on society, but so are the majority of neurotypical adults. If they're capable of interacting with the outside world, having deliberate hobbies, etc, then while they may need extra/different support with many aspects of life, there will be areas where they don't need the support that society offers ordinarily. (I cannot tell you what areas those will be, but I'm confident there will be some.) Autistic children become autistic adults but, as with anyone, they need opportunities to mature and learn life skills if they are to become competent autistic adults.

Don't assume that there's anything your daughters are incapable of. "Doesn't talk" doesn't mean "can't speak", which doesn't mean "can't understand speech", which doesn't mean "can't use language", which doesn't mean "can't communicate deliberately", which doesn't mean "can't understand communication". You might have preconceptions like "she won't be able to read until at least her first word, so there's no point teaching her": with autism, you have to throw that kind of reasoning out of the window, because there will be at least one thing that an autistic person is "unexpectedly" good at, and if they never get the opportunity to try, you'll never find that out.

If you want them both to have a chance at an independent adulthood, you need to start them on the relevant skills early. Don't save everything until they're 15, because that's a lot to cram into a short space of time. Autistic people don't understand things the same way allistic people do, and not everyone's learned the (culturally-specific) "translating from the allistic explanation attempts" skill, so explanation likely needs supplementation with lots of practical experience.

Example: when going shopping, start at the beginning of the process (going through the pantry / meal plan, identifying which things are needed, compiling a shopping list). Talk through what you're doing, and what your reasoning is. Try to make it a routine, where the same sorts of things happen each time, and decision points are exposited (e.g. "this time, we're driving"): routines are easier to understand, easier to predict, and more familiar, which can be comforting. Though, be aware that autistic people often have atypical sensory processing (https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/sensory...), which might prove too distracting to concentrate on learning: you might have to go shopping during the quiet hours, if the supermarket is ordinarily too intense; or, conversely, a dim supermarket might not be engaging enough. (You'll know your daughters better than I do, but I'm partly writing this for the benefit of others.)

When stuff gets spilt, don't just clean it up: show them how to clean it (including where to get cleaning supplies). When getting breakfast, show them how to do it a few times a week, if they're not already doing it themselves. (Perhaps let them practice pouring measured amounts of washably-dyed water between various containers – plastic milk bottles, especially, are unintuitive near the top and the bottom.) Eight is getting a bit old for such things to be "socially acceptable", but fortunately, autistic people tend to care less about such things (modulo social anxiety), so if you don't say "practising these basic skills is for younger children and other people will judge you for it", that probably won't be an issue.

Abuse is always a concern, but most women have to deal with that sort of thing: these aren't unusual worries for a parent of two daughters to have! Society will be better when they're older. Just try to keep them out of environments where one small group of people is judge, jury and executioner, such as prison-like "assisted living" facilities, or the "care" of ABA practitioners (see: https://starvingautist.com/aba-good-intentions-are-not-good-...). (A good assisted living facility might be really helpful, though: it all depends on what each daughter's needs are when they're adults / no longer your dependents, which is hard to predict from how they are aged 8.)

You might find these stories about an autistic(?) man with limited speech, working in a Swiss police station, interesting. https://notalwaysright.com/no-accident-kboom-explode-on-his-... https://notalwaysright.com/no-neglected-post-on-his-watch/30... https://notalwaysright.com/no-lapses-in-security-on-his-watc... They're written for an allistic audience, but the depiction feels faithful: given the situations depicted, I imagine I'd make the same decisions as Peter did (if I had enough self-confidence to work that job in the first place).

They're also good depictions of autistic morality. Academic descriptions like https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/mind-blindness-affects-mor..., while faithful descriptions, tend to interpret this as "mind blindness", but really it's just having higher standards, closer to what Eliezer Yudkowsky would call "heroic responsibility". (https://aarongertler.net/heroism/ is probably a better description than anything Eliezer Yudkowsky's written.) This article writes:

> The man traveling in Africa who encourages a friend to swim in a pond after seeing other tourists frolicking there is to blame for that friend being bitten by a mosquito and contracting malaria, [autistic research subjects] say, just as the girl who builds an igloo out of snowballs is to blame when icy snowballs crash on her friend’s head.

This makes intuitive sense. Somebody who does not understand that mosquitos are common around stagnant or slow-flowing water such as ponds, and that malaria is endemic to many parts of Africa and can be contracted by mosquito bites, has failed to perform the most basic research, and it's negligent to provide uninformed advice about things to do. (Basing your recommendation off the activities of other tourists displays a severe deficit of theory of mind, but such groupthink is common among the allistic population.) Likewise, if building a structure out of heavy materials, you need to take into account the material properties of such a structure: practising engineering without a license is illegal in many countries, for exactly this reason (not that this heuristic is perfect: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7jq98/man-fined-for-enginee...).

For some reason I can't explain, the authors chose to bookend this paragraph with:

> But the moral conundrums in the second set of experiments flummoxed them. […] In case after case, they assign blame to individuals who intended no harm, failing to distinguish between intent and outcome.

but any philosopher of ethics will tell you that this is an incredibly defensible position, and many will tell you that the standard allistic position makes less sense. Academia – and society in general – labels as a deficit what is actually just a failure to understand allistic nonsense that nobody ever bothered to teach.

It might be worth learning a sign language (ideally one used in your local culture), and/or investing in an AAC system (see https://www.rachelmadel.com/blog/stimming-and-aac for a common misconception).

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sorts of guys have ruined all the games I grew up with. I can’t just casually play anymore. It doesn’t exist. Every lobby left is a sweatfest from people who have been playing the game nonstop since it came out 10-20 years ago sometimes. You have to swing vine from vine to whatever crap game is currently popular to get a chance at pwning noobs again.

Chess is super old but reason it's fun is because of the rating system that matches equal-ish players against each other. I'm guessing these games don't have that, I thought Starcraft had something like that but it's been a while since I played it.

Not much to be done about that with community ran servers for a lot of games. Its a thing when the game developer runs a ton of servers but usually that only lasts a few years after release before these are shut down by the game developer.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sorts of guys have ruined all the games I grew up with. I can’t just casually play anymore. It doesn’t exist. Every lobby left is a sweatfest from people who have been playing the game nonstop since it came out 10-20 years ago sometimes. You have to swing vine from vine to whatever crap game is currently popular to get a chance at pwning noobs again.

There's an easy fix for this one! AI literally made game hacks undetectable. It's never been easier to cheat on videogames in a way that poses literally zero risk of getting banned. Here's an example of a tool that has made my "The Finals" experience about 10000% better: https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy I'm having fun with my buddies, leasiurly talking on discord while yet another diamond sweat-lord who tries to g…

Botting honestly put people out of work. I met someone from brazil who as a kid used to sell runescape gp to americans. He made some money in a world where there wasn’t much else opportunity to do so at that age.
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