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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#191

Post by krisoft »

keiferski wrote: post #71
dragonwriter wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have as far to go, since the maximum distance between any two stations is half as far on a ring city of circumference d as on a linear city of length d , and you can get even shorter if you cut across the ring. To get the same area, you'd have to have slightly more center-line circumference on a ring city as linear distance on a line, but even so your transit distances are going to be shorter on…

Right but if the idea is to maximize the open space / city size while maintaining a fast transit system, then the line makes sense to me. I guess I don’t really understand the criticism, most of which seems to be “you should just build something that isn’t the thing you want to build.” There is plenty of aesthetic merit to the linear city idea on its own. To use an example of a place that already exists: the city Łód…

> the city Łódź in Poland is situated along a single linear 4-5km street.

Are we just making things up? Just by a single glance at a map of Łódź you can see that this is not true. The city is clearly blob shaped.

> I guess I don’t really understand the criticism, most of which seems to be “you should just build something that isn’t the thing you want to build.”

The criticism is that there are reasons why cities are built the way they are built. "Looks good on a 3d render" is not a great reason to do something, and the reasons the proponents list don't hold up to scrutiny.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#192

Post by cess11 »

dindobre wrote: post #180
keiferski wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

Will the world's criminals start storing their money there or did you mean something else with Switzerland of the Middle East?

Probably not, they'll still put the money in Luxembourg and Switzerland, but they can exchange gold and diamonds and stuff like that from shady dealings in Africa for money there.

If you look into it you'll find that it's a nice marketplace for israeli oligarchs running operations in DR Congo, e.g. for diamonds which Israel exports unexpected amounts of, and you'll also find that the Rapid Support Forces/Janjaweed in Sudan are buddies of the UAE. Unlike Switzerland the UAE is quite aggressive militarily, e.g. occupying part of Yemen.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#193

Post by dindobre »

trissylegs wrote: post #187
dindobre wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will the world's criminals start storing their money there or did you mean something else with Switzerland of the Middle East?

Start? Uae is a place known for storing and moving shady money. Very few extradition treatys.

I didn't know that, but I guess that's not too surprising.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#194

Post by Moldoteck »

keiferski wrote: post #99
leoedin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm really struggling to understand why a linear city is appealing. I suppose if you set a hard limit of one train line in your city, then building it along that train line might make sense. You'd spend a lot of time on that one train line though - and I imagine in the central bits it would get really really busy as people are trying to get to the other end. And what happens if that train line breaks? Making a…

I don’t know if this applies so much to Neom, but I can think of many scenarios in which a linear city is more appealing than a circular one. For example - if there is a natural element like a river, lake, canyon, etc. that you want to maximize city exposure to. A linear city roughly following the Grand Canyon would be infinitely more interesting than a circular one situated at one end of it.

in the end it'll still be 'disk like'. You build along the river, distances are getting big and suddenly you realize there's a lot of unused space where you can expand the building of the city while maintaining short commute time(building perpendicular to the river/expanding the width of the city), meaning even more money, more people, more economic activity. In fact most of big cities built on rivers started as small communes that gradually expanded in each direction

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#195

Post by nicolas_t »

pdimitar wrote: post #118
lvl102 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

> For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. Quite correct. I had people reaching out to me saying they want me to contract for Arabic millionaires -- websites, backends, a lot of stuff together -- but every time they demanded time tracking, they wanted to know my physical add…

In my experience of working with software developers in India and China, the ones who are really good would absolutely refuse this kind of privacy invasion. Good developers living in those countries have choice and are well paid.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#196

Post by brtkdotse »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #162
yreg wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>about having a good city to live in I don't want to open a flame war, but I visited the city during the Expo and its a highway with a stripe of skyscrapers on each side and slums beyond. It's impossible to walk anywhere. (To be fair, the public transport is pretty good, as long as you live next to the highway.) When I read "a good city to live in" I imagine something like Vienna.

> It's impossible to walk anywhere. That is fair. I guess my comparison is San Diego (where I grew up) and Mexico, where I lived all of my adult life until moving to Dubai in 2022. The city is building a new metro line and improving on walkability as new neighborhoods of high population density pop up. It will still be very focused on shopping malls with AC because of the heat during the summers. Official records of…

> Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason.

It baffles me that anyone, let alone a bunch of people, would look at this and say “ah, yes, this seems like a good place to live”.

To each their own, I guess.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#197

Post by zelphirkalt »

alangibson wrote: post #134

I want to see someone seriously analyze what would happen if there was a power loss to the Line. Hundreds of thousands of people in a glass box in 50C weather with no AC sounds like a recipe for a record breaking mass casualty event.

Lets ship all the influencers there, who peddle the luxurious lifestyle narative and sign contracts to never say anything bad about these countries. "Influencer license" haha.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#198

Post by Moldoteck »

keiferski wrote: post #32
gherkinnn wrote: post #19

The whole idea of a linear city is daft. A circle is way more efficient at getting around. The dimensions of the Line are, of course, silly as well.

Is that actually true from a transportation physics perspective? I can’t imagine that a curved tram/train/etc. would be able to accelerate and decelerate as efficiently as one on a straight path.

circular/disk cities are basically line cities that are copied and rotated, you still can build straight line transport. If you talk about real circle cities and not disks-the idea is just as bad as straight line

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#199

Post by adzm »

oliviabenson wrote: post #182
Simon_ORourke wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of these societies have for human dignity. Public executions and flogging, discrimination and imprisonment based solely on gender, absolutely zero regard for freedom of conscience when it comes to matters of religion. There's only so much you can get away with by say…

We are complicit (if not responsible). Accepted practice isn’t an excuse for indifference but criticising your own country isn’t a free pass to criticise the culture of others without challenging our culpability. If we sincerely want to help the citizens of these countries that we believe to be oppressed, we have options that we choose not to take. We could offer cultural asylum, give people a route to access our cul…

> You can hate public executions, flogging, discrimination based on gender and sexuality, and you should, I do, but don’t compare societies. We are not better, just different.

You are literally comparing societies.

I really don't understand what your point is.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#200

Post by x2dhump »

Oh the bias, quiet unfortunate. So many comments against ME countries with so many false pretenses, you can easily tell many haven't set a foot on ME soil let alone actually lived there - holiday doesn't count. Having lived in ME for a long, long time I've had many liberals and atheists friends jump on the first ship to ME on a 'good' salary - slavery you say. I'm an Englishman, not a middle eastern.
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