SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure' • Hacker News Board

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#191

Post by nox101 » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 11:50 PM UTC

nox101 wrote: post #188

nerdjon wrote: post #10

Well... I feel slightly better about Boston constantly pushing back being able to use our phones as tickets after seeing the timeline for the transition and how just that they are still doing this. What is it about public transit in the US that it is so... bad? Inadequate funding seems to be the easy one, but the MBTA (Boston) doesn't even handle the funds it has well. Yeah it needs more funding but there is also jus…

Japan's transit is private and semi-competitive. (there are 10+ train companies in Tokyo), (4+ in Kyoto), I haven't counted Osaka's It works because the companies own land and facilities around every station. Grocery stores, office buildings, shopping centers (stores at many stations), apartments, etc. This creates a virtuous cycle where the more riders the more people use their other services and visa-versa. As for…

I'd love to know what incentives make this stuff work in countries with pure "public" transportation. There the obvious "it's the right thing to do" but this American (me) sees that incentives work and I can't see what incentives keep politicians, which are human just like everyone else, from syphoning funds from public transportation to other things, not able to get a large enough budget to upgrade since they need all the other politicians in, not get influenced by industry trying to sell cars, etc..

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#192

Post by mikewarot » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 11:53 PM UTC

fdr wrote: post #131

iancmceachern wrote: post #63

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

A once a generation refresh seems okay in my book. The Breda trains that came in 1996 were being phased out about twenty years into their tenure, most generally seem to think that is about reasonable a time to do something like that. I don’t see software related regimes as inherently that different. Since I experienced 5.25 inch floppy disk era...and even the occasional bernoulli disk...we could simply say: the syste…

That ancient code is the crystalization of the knowledge of how to run, at the most basic level, all of the MTA. Emulating hardware is a good way to extend it's life while the decade long task of replacing it is underway.

Until you have directly used "legacy" machine that are mission critical, and understand how even a tiny error could cause the failure of a business and all the jobs that go with it, you can't avoid underestimating the true scale and scope of the problem.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#193

Post by jampekka » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:00 AM UTC

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #4

>Turns out that in 1998, SFMTA had the latest cutting edge technology when they installed their automatic train control system. > "We were the first agency in the U.S. to adopt this particular technology but it was from an era that computers didn't have a hard drive so you have to load the software from floppy disks on to the computer," In 1998, most personal computers already had hard drives [0]. From Wikipedia "The…

I had the displeasure to operate a sort of industrial/automotive rack computer running very simple Simulink data logging that booted only from a floppy, and I think it was bought around 2008. For a greenfield project.

Probably cost like hell and was decade or two behind in technology, but I didn't buy it and definitely wouldn't have. Salespeople get people to do stupid stuff.

I'd guess these are used a lot in industrial settings where the code and task is actually very simple. Would run no problem with a $1 microcontroller and a hundred lines of C and with a lot less hassle. Likely vendors have gotten a reputation and keep on selling them with FUD.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#194

Post by napierzaza » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:04 AM UTC

yonran wrote: post #161

iancmceachern wrote: post #63

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

The real scope of the project is a mind-boggling $600 million to track the light rail trains inside and outside the tunnels and to control the trains inside the tunnels. Divided by the 250 light rail vehicles (apparently does not include historic streetcars), it works out to $2.6 million per car. Plus $36M for consulting (2023-11-07 board presentation from the documents that I linked earlier https://www.sfmta.com/sit…

[dead]

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#195

Post by DerekL » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:12 AM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #29

>""The system is currently working just fine, but we know that with each increasing year, risk of data degradation on the floppy disks increases and that at some point there will be a catastrophic failure," Tumlin told ABC7." Do they know that floppy can be backed up?

Yes, but where are they going to get more blank disks? No one makes them anymore, they'll have to search for new old stock.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#196

Post by skissane » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:17 AM UTC

> Turns out that in 1998, SFMTA had the latest cutting edge technology when they installed their automatic train control system.

> "We were the first agency in the U.S. to adopt this particular technology but it was from an era that computers didn't have a hard drive so you have to load the software from floppy disks on to the computer," said Mariana Maguire, SFMTA Train Control Project.

> SFMTA's train control system relies every morning on 5 inch floppy disks.

This doesn’t make any sense. 5.25-inch floppy disks and no hard disks was not “cutting edge technology” in 1998. It arguably wasn’t even “cutting edge technology” in 1988

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#197

Post by jcgrillo » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:26 AM UTC

skissane wrote: post #196

> Turns out that in 1998, SFMTA had the latest cutting edge technology when they installed their automatic train control system. > "We were the first agency in the U.S. to adopt this particular technology but it was from an era that computers didn't have a hard drive so you have to load the software from floppy disks on to the computer," said Mariana Maguire, SFMTA Train Control Project. > SFMTA's train control syste…

Not cutting edge personal computer technology, obviously, but was it not cutting edge train control technology? TFA isn't making any claims about PC technology. If I had to come up with a computer system that needs to last O(1 century) I'd avoid disks, I think.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#198

Post by snvzz » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:26 AM UTC

iancmceachern wrote: post #63

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

Hopefully once they finally look into replacing the system, seL4 will be selected.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#199

Post by sitharus » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:29 AM UTC

skissane wrote: post #196

> Turns out that in 1998, SFMTA had the latest cutting edge technology when they installed their automatic train control system. > "We were the first agency in the U.S. to adopt this particular technology but it was from an era that computers didn't have a hard drive so you have to load the software from floppy disks on to the computer," said Mariana Maguire, SFMTA Train Control Project. > SFMTA's train control syste…

It would make sense if it was 1978 which seems to be when the metro system was being brought online, but ATC was definitely 1998.

Perhaps ATC was layered on top of the original signalling system, which is the part that uses the floppy disks?

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#200

Post by samatman » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 12:35 AM UTC

afavour wrote: post #142

aorloff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have some evidence that government is not incompetent ?

It’s weird that people have this notion about government and only government. There are things governments do well and things they do badly. You could say the exact same thing about private business: businesses go bankrupt every day, wasting time and resources. But no one argues that the very concept of business is “incompetent”.

Yes, that happens: when private ventures go sour, which happens rather frequently, they go bankrupt.

Public ventures are like that, but without the bankruptcy.