Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#191

Post by atarian » Wed, May 16, 2012, 4:32 AM UTC

Interesting conversation between Zed and Jeff: http://twitter.com/#!/zedshaw/status/202471821264691200

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#192

Post by josephcooney » Wed, May 16, 2012, 5:10 AM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #72

You see, I'm proud to say I am the proto-enabler of the meme that everyone can learn to code (not Codecademy, or however you spell it). I don't mean to disparage the good things Zed has done in helping new people learn to code, but am I the only one who is a bit put off with the narcissism here? I mean, Zed is hardly the first person to encourage non-programmers to program, or to write a book to teach non-programmers…

You certainly weren't alone there re: the over-the-top narcissism, and seems like massive disrespect to everyone involved in languages research for the last 40 years, which has attempted to make programming easier and more accessible. Alan Kay would be rolling in his grave if he were dead.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#193

Post by marvin » Wed, May 16, 2012, 7:40 AM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #190

I think what Zed missed, and possibly Jeff as well, is that only a small percentage of people really have what it takes, brain-wise, to do programming. And not just to do programming but to not hate it. The intersection of those two things. And I'm not talking just about writing a simple recipe-like script. But really understanding how computers work, memory, networking, recursion, threads, etc. Just as only a small…

I've heard this sentiment before, but to me it sounds like an incredibly arrogant glorification of computer programmers. How are the best computer people different from, say, the best doctors, mechanical engineers or industrial designers? Specialization and deep knowledge of a particular domain isn't unique to the IT industry.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#194

Post by rrreese » Wed, May 16, 2012, 8:17 AM UTC

xanados wrote: post #181

Smudge wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all insults are ad hominem . For this to be ad hominem , he would have to be saying that the reason Attwood was wrong was because he "gets off on making beginners feel like they're worthless..." Here's a quick illustration: Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Therefore he is wrong. Not Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Incidentally, he is also wrong.

Technically you may be right, if one is in a debate club perhaps. In a real world debate the close position of two elements, especially when one is composed of emotional content, draws a strong implied link between the two points even if they are separate. It's not a compelling defense to say that everyone should be an expert at logical debate and should know to ignore the insults one heaps on one's opponents.

Ad hominem (argumentum ad hominem) is a specific term of art to describe arguments that try to counter a thesis by attacking the character, qualifications, standing etc of the person claiming the thesis.

It does not mean an argument in which a person insults the person claiming the thesis. Insults rarely add anything to an argument but that is a different matter.

Also note that an ad hominem doesn't need to be insulting - it could be a very polite statement such as "This argument is incorrect because Mr Atwood is unqualified to discuss matters of education as he is not himself an educator". This is not really insulting (though I would argue that Jeff is in a way an educator) but is still an ad hominem.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#195

Post by rsanchez1 » Wed, May 16, 2012, 8:43 AM UTC

I'm sure Isaac Newton would have resented the fact that calculus is so easy nowadays (at least the calculus required to understand his writing) that high school students have it on their curriculum.

On second thought, he probably would have been delighted that even teens can use his work.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#196

Post by rsanchez1 » Wed, May 16, 2012, 8:44 AM UTC

slurgfest wrote: post #176

B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

"Please don't learn to code" is not a useful or kind thing to say. If he did not mean to say that, then he shouldn't have said it. Technically most people can get by without literacy, general education, birth control or hand washing. But it's just offensively elitist to say that "most people" don't need things which enrich life and improve opportunities significantly, in aggregate. How do you know who should be permi…

I guess Atwood felt that even he needed linkbait and chose that title for that post.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#197

Post by tomdtpink » Wed, May 16, 2012, 8:44 AM UTC

Trolls kill HN.

HN is ignorance.

Hackers are dead.

Staartup Junkies are just greedy cunts.

Long Live Neckbeards.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#198

Post by kailashbadu » Wed, May 16, 2012, 9:00 AM UTC

I can't believe Zed Shaw doesn't get it.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#199

Post by mitsche » Wed, May 16, 2012, 9:30 AM UTC

rauljara wrote: post #131

zedshaw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a strawman argument is quoting things out of context to make your point.

No. A strawman is when you give your opponent an argument other than the one s/he is making and refute that instead of the real argument. In other words, you created a strawman and knocked him down, claiming victory while the real man remained standing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

Quoting out of context is in there as well.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#200

Post by rsanchez1 » Wed, May 16, 2012, 9:54 AM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #188

xanados wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically you may be right, if one is in a debate club perhaps. In a real world debate the close position of two elements, especially when one is composed of emotional content, draws a strong implied link between the two points even if they are separate. It's not a compelling defense to say that everyone should be an expert at logical debate and should know to ignore the insults one heaps on one's opponents.

You need to learn the difference between insults and logical fallacies. This has nothing to do with whether or not insults are bad in a discussion (they almost always are), it has to do with the poster citing the ad hominem fallacy incorrectly because they think using Latin words will strengthen their point.

We should start a movement to persuade everyone to learn logical fallacies. Then we'll get some other guy begging everyone to stop following the fad and not learn logical fallacies. After that, we'll get a third guy writing a response saying the other guy is wrong. Finally, we'll get a lot of people illogically applying logical fallacies, and we'll get them then!

Seriously, understanding of logical fallacies seems to be in very short supply around HN. If I didn't know any better I would think I'm over at Reddit.