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Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

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Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#191

Post by lordfrito »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #159
lordfrito wrote: post #125

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

This same logic can be used to justify any system of exploitive power. Companies control my ability to eat and be housed , these companies drive global politics. If the voice and ethics of the people are not allowed to influence these, then what voice to do the people have? Is my choice is to keep in line or starve how is that any different than any other despotic system? You're own profile says "I may disapprove of…

I never suggested the employee wasn't allowed to speak their mind.

I'm just saying that the person should fully expect to be fired for that sort of behavior, and take that into consideration. There is a time and place, and work is not it. Don't crap where you eat, etc.

If you did that in my house, I'd (politely) kick you out. You're welcome to disagree with me, but if you're inside my house then it's on my terms.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#192

Post by smashah »

user_7832 wrote: post #173
smashah wrote: post #74

Is there a word for the "If I don't get paid for building a baby-killing-machine someone else will" type of regressive attitude that many self-deluded contrarians exhibit in the tech industry? Many such people would be diligent VW/Mercedes/Tesch and Stabenow/Degesch employees during WW2.

The inventor of the Gatling gun famously wanted to save lives. Even with good intentions, he ended up with lots more people dying.

I've met a lot of these people in time studying aerospace. They do not have any intentions other than getting paid.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#193

Post by lordfrito »

surfpel wrote: post #152
lordfrito wrote: post #125

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

> If you don't like the job, leave it. Meanwhile in your bio: "I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" So which is it? Defend those who speak up or demand they leave and berate them as "conceited/pretentious"?

I replied above to same essential comment.... you can say what you want, but in my house I'm free to kick you out if I don't like it. Go scream it from the sidewalk.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#194

Post by GordonS »

fny wrote: post #163
GordonS wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ICJ case wasn't intended to say "yes/no" to "is Israel committing genocide?" - the purpose was see if there was that risk. They found there is a plausible risk that Israel is committing genocide. US-backed Israel has recently been shown to have misrepresented itself to the ICJ multiple times - I can dig up a link later if you're curious. And in January Netanyahu said: “No one will stop us, not The Hague, not the…

This is not accurate. South Africa's intent was to convict Israel of genocide. The case they submitted to the court makes that clear.

This is not accurate. The initial hearing was only to determine if there was a risk of genocide, and if any provisional measures were to be taken. An actual verdict on genocide could take several years.

The court ordered provisional measures that included:

"Take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip."

"Take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip"

Israel has shown utter contempt to the court, going by Netanyahu's words (e.g. "nobody will stop us... not the Hague..."), by senior ministers words, the IDF's actions, the actions of civilians blocking aid to starving people, the Gaza real-estate conferences, breaking the Geneva convention to parade prisoners held in their dungeons on national TV... almost every conceivable way, really.

[0] https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/making-sense-of-the-icj...

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#195

Post by lordfrito »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #186
lordfrito wrote: post #125

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

While it's absolutely true that corporations are amoral dictatorships, not democracies, companies like Google spend an awful lot of PR time and money virtue signaling otherwise (and I use that term not in a derogatory way, but a literal way - they are deliberately signaling virtue, often in conflict with their actual actions.) If Google want to pretend their founding principal is "do the right thing", and put that fr…

> companies like Google spend an awful lot of PR time and money virtue signaling otherwise

Oh I totally agree, I have zero love for Google or FAANG etc... they need to get reigned in.

It's just that, on this particular point (tolerating disruptive workplace behavior), I'm on the side of Google (and every other company) here.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#196

Post by lordfrito »

wootland wrote: post #149
lordfrito wrote: post #125

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

I don't think he's expecting anything, just protesting and drawing awareness. It worked too because we're now talking about it.

[flagged]

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#197

Post by shrimp_emoji »

CommanderData wrote: post #12

The engineer refused to be directly complicit in Genocide and we punish him? Irony is we applaud those whom resisted Nazism. Rightly. I invite everyone to read Norman Finelstein whos father was a resistor to Nazism explain the similarities to concentration camps and Gaza. https://theintercept.com/2018/05/20/norman-finkelstein-gaza-...

[flagged]

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#198

Post by fasthands9 »

DicIfTEx wrote: post #148
liampulles wrote: post #96

Its striking to me that there seems to be a segment of the population now that think that a company should behave like a democracy. I'd be very interested to see research about how this kind of viewpoint has changed over time, at what kind of companies it is more or less prevalent at, etc. I find this viewpoint astonishing personally, but that might have to do with my upbringing and cultural background.

From https://www.uk.coop/understanding-co-ops/what-co-op/quick-fa... > There are 3 million co-ops around the world – with 1.2 billion members. > That means 12% of the people on Earth are part of a co-op. With co-ops being just one particularly prominent form of democratic business structure, workplace democracy is not quite as marginal a notion as you might think.

I don't disagree with this - but work at a co-op if you prefer that system of management?

I actually like working at a corporation because I don't have to play politics or worry about parts of the business I'm not involved in. It would be hell if I had to spend my evenings in meetings about foreign policy issues or disciplinary hearings for employees in other departments.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#200

Post by fasthands9 »

goethes_kind wrote: post #135
blueflow wrote: post #5

Why is employee dissent such a problem in google and not a problem in other companies?

Because smart moral people don't let themselves be used for evil and smart people also have options to work elsewhere. The guy knew he was going to get fired and he did not care because he was already determined not to work for an evil employer. He could have left quietly, but he decided to take a personal hit to bring awareness to the issue. That makes him a hero in my eyes.

I admit I think there are reasons beyond that. I realize it's anecdotal, but I rarely hear about this type of event at Amazon or Microsoft or even Apple. Google attracts a lot of disputes like this.

I would speculate it has something to do with what age range they like to hire or their branding. But I'm not sure.

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