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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#191

Post by mewpmewp2 »

al_borland wrote: post #158
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right it works, but I guess I somehow usually expect it to happen in a lighter way, without the actual click going through. And when I do it, it feels weird to me. It feels like I have to exert more force than I would find "pleasurable" or "intuitive" for a right click. Like I either expect there to be a button that I have to actually press, or if it's a touchpad it feels like it should work with a lighter ta…

In the settings you can set how much force is needed, light, medium, or firm. Try changing it to light (if you haven't already). You can also enable tap-to-click there if you prefer the lightest touch. The settings area also shows all the various multitouch things that can be done, which is convenient place to learn them, or get a reminder. In the settings you can also flip the modifier keys around, like control and…

So I tried changing the settings, and somehow during that, I accidentally managed to change the size of my menubar, I don't know how. But anyway - even after changing to light, which also seemed an odd process to me that I had to do it as a range slider, where it snapped at certain point in time, even though I was moving my hand smoothly, which I guess is NOT that bad, but it could've been just 3 radio button options, not this goofy slider. And somehow when I click on the option the range option, this simple animation lags and skips. It just doesn't feel smooth animation. I don't have the latest M chip, but I do have an M1 Pro chip, so I'd imagine it should be able to handle animating a slider change... But I didn't finish my sentence previously. Even at light, it doesn't feel like I would intuitively expect it to feel. Something is still wrong.

And another random grievance - what is the point of only showing X, - and the other icon when you hover on them. It's just weird decision to me. The Red > Yellow > Green thing.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#192

Post by tjohns »

recursive wrote: post #159
danaris wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the first thing you need to know is that, as the title of the submission clearly states, this is about touchpads. Not keyboards. So, y'know, pointing out that the down arrow isn't super relevant isn't exactly coming out of nowhere. But assuming that their version of smooth scrolling does, in fact, work the same as Apple's, it's not even a matter of "it smoothly animates scrolling down by one line;" it's that yo…

I see. If you can move a mouse cursor by a single pixel, that would seem to be enough fidelity to scroll by a single pixel. I've never seen a touchpad that didn't meet that criteria. But then I've never used a touchpad in linux. And maybe I'm just wrong about everything. Wouldn't be the first time.

On older systems, scrolling on the trackpad would emulate mouse scroll wheel events - scrolling my one (or more) lines per increment.

This made sense with scroll wheels, because they moved in discrete (large) clicks.

The problem isn't capturing one-pixel accuracy with the trackpad deiver, it's that at the application layer a lot of legacy mouse input APIs treat scrolling as if the user still has a 90s-era mouse with a physical scroll wheel.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#193

Post by ben-schaaf »

sandreas wrote: post #37
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It isn't... You can see this in an open source JavaScript implementation of kinetic scrolling by Apple called PastryKit[3] using a magic number momentum * 0.9. The problem is, that on modern Linux environments, there is no clear responsibility for where scroll handling code belongs. Especially Kinetic / Inertial scrolling is handled way different than in macOS. There is libinput (for handling and redirecting input ev…

Slight correction: macOS handles the kinetic scrolling, but rubber banding is handled by the app itself.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#194

Post by kstrauser »

heleninboodler wrote: post #53
mrweasel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an Apple Magic Trackpad, which I use with my laptop and external monitor. There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to. It's great to be able to take your laptop with you, but it's not a device suited for hours of use. It's also illegal to work on a laptop, without external peripherals and monitor, so you need a pointing device anyway.

> There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to I agree with this, but intentionally choosing a trackpad to put on your desk is just accepting a portion of this hell, in my opinion. The trackpad is an RSI torture device to me, because of the way you have to hold the muscles in the back of your hand tense so all but one finger is a little higher t…

You and me both. A friend introduced me to vertical mice. I regretted the purchase for the first hour, then came to kind of like it, and now you couldn’t pry it away from me.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#195

Post by seltzered_ »

jandrese wrote: post #104
iknowstuff wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry what You can adjust the pressing force required in software, and the glass does in fact depress under your finger. It’s cushioned - that’s how they detect pressure.

You can also detect pressure by just measuring how much of your finger is touching the pad. A small spot means light pressure, a large spot where your skin is flatted out more against the glass is higher pressure. In practice these kinds of measurements are fairly tricky so they don't get used very much.

This. If you ever look at apples raw input touch privateframework it provides enough data for the relative direction/size as well as has some encoded states to at least detect between a very faint touch and a finger on the trackpad.

This I think goes back to the first unibody MacBooks from around 2008.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#196

Post by tambourine_man »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I’m also baffled by this, but Apple's trackpads have been really good for much more than a decade. I remember doing Bézier curves on a G3’s trackpad and PC people thought I was a wizard.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#197

Post by arrakeen »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #180
jwells89 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in front of my computer right now but I’m pretty sure it’s thumb and index finger. Feels completely natural. Maybe it has to do with hand size, finger/joint length, etc?

Okay. Otherwise do you in your natural state hold your left hand index on F and right hand index on J? Going to A on pinky on your left hand and the key after L on your right pinky? Because I think I have pretty much average male hands, but if I have to do CMD and C, with this natural state position, I have to hit the CMD with pretty much the nail of my thumb sideways, unless I rotate my wrist a lot.

on a mac when i'm in mouse and keyboard mode my left thumb is resting on CMD with my index finger on W (CMD+W, close window), middle on 1 (it'll reach down to do CMD+Q), and ` (CMD+`, cycle through windows)

when i'm in programming mode, i'm in emacs on the homerow

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#198

Post by Dalewyn »

palata wrote: post #130
marcodiego wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know the "Year of the Linux Desktop" meme, but this deserves an answer. I don't think linux will overtake apple on the desktop (which actually includes notebook and laptops) but the current state has been good enough for a few years. And I'm not saying it is good enough only in terms of it being ready or well rounded, I mean in terms of marketshare. Linux has surpassed the 4% mark in globalstats last month and…

Also... I don't really want Linux on the Desktop to beat macOS/Windows. Because at that point it will be just like macOS/Windows, and I am not on Linux for that. I often see complaints that Linux on the Desktop is not enough like macOS/Windows, and I never understand: why use Linux then? I want Linux because of what it is now, not because I want a free macOS/Windows.

You don't understand because most would-be converts by far want a free-as-in-beer Windows or Mac.

Annoyed by Microsoft 365 nagging? Sick of the Apple ecosystem? Mah freedom? Nevermind all that, they're just excuses. The real reason is they don't want to pay $200+ for a Windows license or $1000+ for a Mac.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#199

Post by recursive »

tjohns wrote: post #192
recursive wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. If you can move a mouse cursor by a single pixel, that would seem to be enough fidelity to scroll by a single pixel. I've never seen a touchpad that didn't meet that criteria. But then I've never used a touchpad in linux. And maybe I'm just wrong about everything. Wouldn't be the first time.

On older systems, scrolling on the trackpad would emulate mouse scroll wheel events - scrolling my one (or more) lines per increment. This made sense with scroll wheels, because they moved in discrete (large) clicks. The problem isn't capturing one-pixel accuracy with the trackpad deiver, it's that at the application layer a lot of legacy mouse input APIs treat scrolling as if the user still has a 90s-era mouse with…

I finally get what this is about. That sounds terrible. Thank you.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#200

Post by dhosek »

mrweasel wrote: post #79
heleninboodler wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to I agree with this, but intentionally choosing a trackpad to put on your desk is just accepting a portion of this hell, in my opinion. The trackpad is an RSI torture device to me, because of the way you have to hold the muscles in the back of your hand tense so all but one finger is a little higher t…

For me it's either a trackpad or a trackball. I find that any pain comes from moving my wrist and the Magic Trackpad is large enough that I move my entire arm and not the wrist. It's great that we have options, so that people can pick what works for them. It is a little sad that Apple is pretty much the only option for an "external" trackpad though.

Back in the 90s I had a 102-key keyboard with a built in trackpad (and dual PS2 connectors to hook up to the PC) that was actually pretty nice—except if I tried using the trackpad when my fingers were damp in which case it was hell. I bought it in anticipation of moving to a laptop (which didn’t actually happen for another 5 years), but it was the first step in my becoming a trackpad aficionado.
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