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Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

deprocrastination.co

191–200 of 225 posts

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah: the lack of motivation is the problem. But here's the thing: just like a depressed person can't just "snap out of it", someone with ADHD cannot just make themselves get the motivation. Why? Because we can't remember that we need to. ADHD is primarily a working memory impairment. All brains have an autopilot mode, and an ADHD brain on autopilot thinks thousands of thoughts at once. When I am not medicated…

I haven't really heard about ADHD framed as a working memory impairment. Because it does seem like an easy workaround via religiously following pomodoro - every 25 mins a reminder that you should look at your task list. It's hard to argue that someone can manage to ignore an alarm ringing every 25 minutes. I thought of it more as you actually do know what you should be doing, but there is something a lot more interes…

The working memory impairment idea comes up a lot. I don't know that it's necessarily "scientifically correct" but it feels subjectively true to me, and thinking about it this way seems to help.

Here's the thing: I know what's important, I know that hard work is one of my core values, etc. I just don't remember any of this when stressed and the brain goes for the shiniest thing that gives immediate gratification and gets stuck there.

A too-perfect-to-be-true manager could maybe notice daydreaming and just say, hey, focus. That would be enough to snap out of the fugue state. Unfortunately, manager types tend to be the "tough love" people and they assume things about morals and values. Avoiding this is what people mean when they say ADHD people need more compassion.

Essentially, people with ADHD have figured out how to act in order to trigger the "they have the right beliefs" thoughts in people like you. It takes a lot of effort, and because it's not automatic sometimes we get exhausted and fail. That's when you see the inconsistency.

Imagine being in a wheelchair, needing an elevator to get to the second floor, and then being berated for not wanting to go up there badly enough when you can't make it when the elevator is broken.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot overstate how odious I find opinion. Yes, people with ADHD need structure and accountability. But they don't need more shame or punishment. Shame is malignant. It is an unproductive feeling that hinders people from seeking out accommodations that would help them. This idea of punitively shaming people with ADHD is doubly asinine, because people with ADHD often suffer from rejection sensitivity dysphoria[1],…

> I cannot overstate how odious I find opinion. Yet... > RSD isn’t an officially recognized medical condition. It’s also a condition for which there’s limited scientific research available. > https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24099-rejecti... --- > This idea of punitively shaming people... It's more about ensuring they appreciate the severity of the deadline. If I tell a non-ADHD person to try their best…

RSD is a term used to explain a behavior. It doesn't have to be a medical diagnosis for it to be something people experience.

> It's more about ensuring they appreciate the severity of the deadline.

People with ADHD are aware that there are consequences for missing deadlines, so aware they've coined the phrase "ADHD Tax"[1]. Shaming doesn't motivate people, especially people who have issues with motivation in the first place[2]. It just causes them to withdrawal.

> If I tell an ADHD person to try their best to meet the deadline, they might have not started at all, and end up falling far behind, or start making excuses because they are captivated by another task.

Telling someone to "try their best" doesn't actually address the problem their having.

Folks with ADHD aren't always just distracted. There are a number of factors at play with ADHD: poor memory (e.g. often "out of sight, out of mind"), poor organizational skills, and often time-blindness make it hard for people with ADHD to structure their lives. All of these things fall under "executive function"-- which is impaired in people with ADHD[3]. Ex: someone with ADHD might spend a week working on some random detail that doesn't matter, because they think it's important.

Deadline extensions are only one type of accommodation, but imo they don't really address what the person is struggling with.

There a multitude of other accommodations. This may include letting an employee wear headphones, or having a "do not disturb" sign (that is actually respected), or partnering with an employee with especially good organizational skills. Allowing them to block out a few hours of the day where they will not respond to phone calls or emails, etc...

For projects: assistance with breaking down tasks and setting priorities paired with frequent deadlines can combat overwhelm and help with consistency. There are lots of ideas out there, here's a particularly helpful list[4]. Do not micromanage-- you'll make it worse.

> I can only conclude that ADHD people need a shorter leash regarding scope and stricter deadlines, and not a comforting presence to reduce the pressure.

The most helpful accommodations will depend on the individual, but now you have lots of ideas. Of course, they hinge on the employee feeling comfortable enough with you to actually discuss what they need.

[1]: https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-tax-financial-wellness-mone...

[2]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/longing-nostalgia/20...

[3]: https://www.additudemag.com/7-executive-function-deficits-li...

[4]: https://add.org/adhd-workplace-accommodations-guide/

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#193

Great ideas. I believe that dealing with a messy ambient or situations is a nice skill to develop, some people can't handle it at all. With time, you'll start to appreciate the imperfections, the fact that you can't absolutely focus for a task because people are sending you messages, will have a smaller impact on your emotions and your overall focus will improve. Having the goal of having absolute uninterrupted time…

> I've started thinking, reflecting and accepting real and even half-assed solutions to problems, my life started to improve, and it became lighter as well.

Love it. Great job. I feel the same. Good enough works well in many situations.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#194
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had my new therapist yesterday telling me "doesn't it feel good to be consistent and achieve things" and I'm like yeah no shit. "so you need to be consistent with something" yeah that's my problem dawg. "what's the feeling you get when you want to quit?" it just happens that my life falls apart or I get really into sth else. does nobody else just lose track of all the bricks required to do things sometimes? "i…

It sounds like your therapist is in the wrong profession. I've interacted with four different ones so far, and while the value I got out of them varied greatly I think none of them would ever say BS like that. > I sure do hope I actually have ADHD I hope whoever tests you is not like the ADHD "specialist" I had to deal with. Knowingly swapped symptoms and cause in the final report for whatever reason, and made terrib…

Honestly I've had a few and I've had much much worse. Especially as someone LGBT they can be downright offensive and oblivious.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#195
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is pretty silly, and a misunderstanding of the research. All of the mutations in dopamine transport associated with ADHD are pretty weakly associated, and still very common in the non-ADHD population.

You are actually making the case that ADHD doesn't exist or is pretty meaningless. There is no scientific basis for it, it was a bunch of criteria that were arbitrarily chosen to create a term called "ADHD" so that they can prescribe meds. You just have to ask the question as to why we can't give meds to everyone when 25% of college students report using them. Why can't we give meds to someone addicted to social medi…

Most medical conditions are diagnosed entirely on symptoms, and then those symptoms are treated. Especially in psychiatry, where we understand so little about the brain- all conditions in the DSM are symptom based, not mechanistic.

We cannot have a scientific understanding of the underlying mechanisms behind a disease, when our biological understanding is way too primitive to allow that.

Medicine has been helping people effectively for thousands of years, long before science even existed, by treating symptoms. It is "scientific" in the sense that the symptoms for a specific disease are clearly defined, and the safety and effectiveness of a treatment is determined experimentally, for the group of people fitting those symptoms.

The concept of a neurodevelopmental disorder is also symptom based- there is a measured progression of certain abilities in the "average" person, and there is a measurable delay in those abilities with a neurodevelopmental disorder. Again, that is a symptom, and has nothing to do with understanding the mechanism.

Using a lack of mechanistic understanding to say a condition doesn't exist, or is meaningless is nonsense. It's a clearly defined set of symptoms that can make normal life extremely difficult for the people affected, and can be effectively treated. It has known causes- both environmental, and genetic, as well as known physical phenotypic traits that can be measured experimentally. All hints towards eventually increasing our understanding of the underlying biology.

I would argue we actually understand virtually nothing about essentially all medical conditions, even the most deadly and most treatable ones. By your same logic, you could say diabetes "does not exist" because we don't understand exactly why people stop producing or become resistant to insulin. Yet people without treatment die, and people with treatment can thrive, which is sufficient reason for having a disease category despite lack of mechanistic understanding.

It would be great if we understood the human body a lot better, but that will take a long time, and a lot more research. We shouldn't stop making peoples lives better in the short term.

As a researcher in the biomedical field for a long time, I have come to see mechanisms come and go for diseases over the years, yet the diseases themselves remain constant. Most of our historically popular mechanisms like "depression is low serotonin" turned out to be either misunderstandings, or gross oversimplifications. Yet that doesn't change the fact that certain treatments work for certain clusters of symptoms we define as a disease.

I think "scientism" in medicine has been very harmful, and is mostly a delusion, and often a type of fraud aimed at creating an illusion of credibility. Pretending that things have a deep mechanistic explanation or understanding when they do not, and then dismissing safe and effective treatments when the mechanism isn't understood, or dismissing traditional medicine from other cultures and time periods because it's "not scientific."

Indeed, defining medical conditions always involves a cultural context, and is therefore "arbitrary" in a sense. I could imagine, for example, that having an ADHD brain could actually be a huge benefit to a hunter gatherer, but harmful to a modern office worker. Many other cultures and time periods have concepts of disease conditions that are basically incomprehensible to us, because they represent human differences which are now mainstream and culturally acceptable, so, despite representing a real difference, they do not cause a problem for people affected in the context of our modern society, and are therefore not a disease to us.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#196
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could have written this... I've spent thousands on productivity and organization courses, and put a lot of effort into them, only to find myself unable to follow the system, for reasons I don't understand. My whole life I've suffered from massive guilt, shame, and stress over not getting things done that were really important to me, and nobody understanding. "Clearly it's not important to you, or you would just do…

How does exercise affect a child with ADHD? I always see these portrayals of ADHD children being hyperactive and just think: what if you just made them run outside for a while...surely they can't have never-ending energy and eventually tired themselves out. And after this period of exertion, when they rest, do they then just instantly revert back to 100% hyperactivity?

The physical hyperactivity is often a pretty minor symptom of ADHD, bigger issues for many kids are things like inability to regulate emotions, e.g. causing violent outbursts over small things, or inability to focus, e.g. not able to do school work.

The physical hyperactivity, like other ADHD symptoms, is a lack of executive control- the person cannot choose to stop moving even though they want to, or feel they should. This is the part that is often hard for non-ADHD people to understand: lack of executive control is an inability to direct our own activity with will or intention. We know what we should do and want to do, but cannot make it happen. So we can, e.g. be really tired, and really want to stop moving, but be unable to do so. Sometimes, with enough will and focus, we can for a short time, but it takes 100x the effort it would take someone else, and can't be sustained for long.

As a person with ADHD, and a father of a kid with ADHD, I can tell you that what you are asking isn't true, at least in our case. It's not about having never-ending energy, but about not being able to limit movement. My kid is constantly moving, even when extremely tired. They will fall out of chairs, and even thrash hard in the bed while trying to fall asleep. We are active outdoors people, and hiking all day long with a heavy load even makes zero difference. In fact, being tired seems to make the executive control worse, and therefore the hyperactivity worse. Which can be a downward spiral, because then you get increasingly tired, and are unable to physically relax, causing even more tiredness. For my kid, peak hyperactivity for the day is often the moments before falling asleep!

That said- lesser amounts of exercise that are enough to be calming, but not tiring, are often very helpful. A short walk, etc. can really help.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#197
post #6

This site is bizarre. If you look at their stuff on addiction, they have no grounding in current theory. And by current theory, that's from science to religious ideas like prayer, nothing they talk about matches anything in the world from hard numbers to mysticism. They also have no explanation why they break with all the current theories or where their theories come from. By now they are a HN institution, but I'd be…

What do they say about addiction? They've got so many articles on it.

[deleted]

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#198
post #6

This site is bizarre. If you look at their stuff on addiction, they have no grounding in current theory. And by current theory, that's from science to religious ideas like prayer, nothing they talk about matches anything in the world from hard numbers to mysticism. They also have no explanation why they break with all the current theories or where their theories come from. By now they are a HN institution, but I'd be…

What do they say about addiction? They've got so many articles on it.

[deleted]

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think that 6 months or more of 5/9 symptoms of inattentiveness or 5/9 symptoms of hyperactivity, persistently, does not represent most of the world. (And excluding: "The symptoms are not solely a manifestation of oppositional behavior, defiance, hostility, or failure to understand tasks or instructions." 6/9 symptoms are required to diagnose children) [0] Indeed, surveys show that it's probably under 10…

If you look into how the criteria is chosen its very arbitrary. And this descriptive diagnosis where you pick from list A and B is extremely bizarre from a common sense standpoint. And there is no brain imaging or genetic markers available. > The number of criteria required for a diagnosis of ADHD has been set arbitrarily in DSM-5. No scientific justification has been presented nor method used for deciding how many c…

The set of symptoms are not arbitrary, but are connected logically, by each being the result of a deficit in some type of executive function. ADHD is broadly a disability of executive function.

Executive function is historically entirely a psychological concept, although there is starting to be some biological understanding which came later (e.g. which brain regions are involved, etc.).

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#200
post #6

This site is bizarre. If you look at their stuff on addiction, they have no grounding in current theory. And by current theory, that's from science to religious ideas like prayer, nothing they talk about matches anything in the world from hard numbers to mysticism. They also have no explanation why they break with all the current theories or where their theories come from. By now they are a HN institution, but I'd be…

What do they say about addiction? They've got so many articles on it.

[deleted]
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