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The case against caffeine

zantafakari.substack.com

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Re: The case against caffeine

#191

Post by crazygringo »

alkonaut wrote: post #138
crazygringo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think many are reporting bad effects on sleep from drinking coffee only in the morning. The article is precisely about how drinking coffee, even just in the morning, absolutely can negatively affect your sleep.

As with anything medical, there can be outliers. But having sleep problems from a morning coffee seems like such an outlier that it doesn't make for interesting reading.

Do you have any basis for claiming it's an outlier?

Caffeine consumption is widespread. Difficulty sleeping is widespread.

That's not saying there's a clear cause and effect -- caffeine has lots of effects, and difficulty sleeping has lots of causes.

But it's just as silly to say that any association is an outlier. And given what we know about the variability of the half-life of caffeine in the body, it's an extremely plausible possibility for a significant proportion of the population.

Not "such an outlier" at all. I'm struggling to see how you could be so immediately dismissive of it.

Re: The case against caffeine

#192

Post by ethanbond »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #152
vinay_ys wrote: post #59

What we really know for sure is this – sleep is good, anxiety is bad. So, if you aren't getting good sleep, find ways to fix it. And if you are anxious all the time, find ways to fix it. By one tradition that's thousands of years old – Yoga+Pranayama+Meditation (linking physical/mental_movement+breadth) and fasting + eating moderately (eat only if you are hungry and eat enough to quench hunger, and eat 'satvik' food)…

Do others not get a lot of headaches on caffeine? Yeah there's ones that come with going off caffeine, but the amount of headaches days I have a month plummets once off of the stuff.

I don’t get headaches from caffeine and I imagine most daily drinkers don’t either.

Re: The case against caffeine

#193

Post by bluecheese452 »

simonsarris wrote: post #103

To add another anecdote: I drink minimum one small pot of coffee a day (a pour-over I make with my wife, 30g/450g beans/water), plus a moka pot or two in the afternoon, or a 15g pour-over. And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual. Certainly ritual. I would never give up the time of sitting with my wife for half an hour to an hour each morni…

I love coffee, but too much and I get anxiety. Always drink it black, never any sugar/milk/cream.

Re: The case against caffeine

#194

Post by InSteady »

blastbking wrote: post #47

Seems like the author is a slow metabolizer like me. Interestingly enough, it seems that the caffeine half life can be shortened by eating broccoli ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17266520/ ) - by having coffee in the mornings and broccoli with dinner I've been able to enjoy the mood boosting effects of caffeine during the day and still be able to sleep fine. Sleep quality aside though, I thought my anxiety was due…

A lot of the back and forth in this thread seems to be overlooking the glaring fact that caffeine's half-life varies from 2 to 12 hours depending on the person. Getting to 90% elimination could take one person ~6 hours and another person ~36 hours.

This, on top of the fact that caffeine has been shown to increase cortisol secretion and adrenaline, as well as boosting the effects of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain, should give a very clear indication that caffeine is going to have drastically different effects from person to person.

Anyone who is struggling with sleep, anxiety, and/or mood disturbances should consider reducing or eliminating caffeine for several weeks to see if it helps. Don't expect it to be a magic bullet to solve all problems, just like anything else. Bodies are complex, and when we are chronically suffering from sub-optimal functioning, it's a good bet that their is some complicated and highly variable biochemistry going on that's keeping the body from homeostasis / optimum function.

Re: The case against caffeine

#195

Post by bluecheese452 »

zhivota wrote: post #153
woodrowbarlow wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i live with (more than mild) ADHD and this is something i only just realized about myself. i used to use medication, but keeping up with the schedules and appointments needed to maintain steady access to the medicine is _exactly_ the sort of thing i struggle with; these days i haven't been medicated for over ten years. i use caffeine (coffe & energy drinks), nicotine (vaping), and sugar (jelly beans) to be a function…

Another option for self medication is exercise. I've been an endurance exercise addict off and on for my whole life, it can take the place of many of your self medications, or if you can't give those up, it can at least nullify the sugar you are taking in by burning it off.

Just commenting to say I have the same experience.

Re: The case against caffeine

#196

Post by jononomo »

thomasahle wrote: post #161
vinay_ys wrote: post #59

What we really know for sure is this – sleep is good, anxiety is bad. So, if you aren't getting good sleep, find ways to fix it. And if you are anxious all the time, find ways to fix it. By one tradition that's thousands of years old – Yoga+Pranayama+Meditation (linking physical/mental_movement+breadth) and fasting + eating moderately (eat only if you are hungry and eat enough to quench hunger, and eat 'satvik' food)…

> And it doesn't have the same impact on everyone's body. I'm one of those that seem able to drink lots of coffee even at 6 or 8pm and still fall fast asleep. I also don't feel any different during the day whether I drink it or not. Though I usually still drink it, for various reasons like taste, warmth and social aspects. People always want to find simple universal dietary rules.

Are you still under 40?

Re: The case against caffeine

#197

Post by graemep »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #172
graemep wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By one tradition that's thousands of years old It is hard to think of a major religious tradition that does not have most of these elements (fasting, moderation, practicing positive thought patterns) within it. The posture and movement bit is specific to that tradition - but even there I think things like "work and prayer" are not that different. > Coming to coffee, all coffee is not made the same way and everyone…

> I find the tone of the article a bit annoying. It reminds me of people on LinkedIn going on about how much better they feel since they gave up alcohol. I'm curious about this. I notice this sentiment on any topic where someone quit somebody else's drug of choice. Someone says they improved their life by dropping weed, the responses will be full of people telling you that alcohol is legal poison (nevermind that nobo…

I would flip that round and ask why people need to feel they have to talk about overcoming any personal problem on social media? Particular as I see it most often on LinkedIn which is supposed to be for business, and mostly used for business. Is it an appropriate venue to discuss something as personal as overcoming an addiction?

The other thing is that there is a strong element of trying to encourage others to do the same. This article is better than most but its intent is still "you should do the experiment for yourself."

It also presents some supposed science that is very misleading. No mention of studies that show any group of people benefit. No mention of differences between long and short term reactions. No mention of possible benefits. No mention of the dangers of suddenly stopping taking it (it is an anti-depressant, you should not suddenly stop anti-depressants).

> Its like a lot of people secretly feel like they have to justify their own usage whenever someone does something differently, as if they feel attacked for some reason.

Maybe sometimes, but quite a lot of the time there is an implicit, moralistic, criticism - the intent is very clearly "this is a bad thing to do" and everyone should stop doing it.

I certainly think people should avoid substances they find they have a tendency to abuse. If you cannot be moderate, then quit. If stopping taking it has an immediate noticeable effect then that is strong evidence you have a problem and should stop taking it. The problem is the assumption that everyone else would have the same benefits if they gave up too.

Re: The case against caffeine

#198

Post by sp332 »

OliveMate wrote: post #46

I've been on the decaf wagon for a good few years now, I can't say it helped me out with anxiety or productivity but I can echo the sentiment that I can sleep within minutes. Also not relying on caffeine to keep me going pretty much forces me to sleep at a reasonable time. The hardest thing about giving up caffeine has to be the immediate effects. Your body takes it as a massive shock and you're stuck with what feels…

I think tapering off caffeine is a lot more gentle than going cold turkey. And if you are in a hurry for whatever reason, plan to have one ~50mg dose on day three or four when the headache gets distractingly bad. You can use Tylenol Ultra Relief or Excedrin Migraine if you don't want to deal with coffee or soda. That should get you over the hump with minimal disruption.

Re: The case against caffeine

#199

Post by BubbleRings »

thomasahle wrote: post #161
vinay_ys wrote: post #59

What we really know for sure is this – sleep is good, anxiety is bad. So, if you aren't getting good sleep, find ways to fix it. And if you are anxious all the time, find ways to fix it. By one tradition that's thousands of years old – Yoga+Pranayama+Meditation (linking physical/mental_movement+breadth) and fasting + eating moderately (eat only if you are hungry and eat enough to quench hunger, and eat 'satvik' food)…

> And it doesn't have the same impact on everyone's body. I'm one of those that seem able to drink lots of coffee even at 6 or 8pm and still fall fast asleep. I also don't feel any different during the day whether I drink it or not. Though I usually still drink it, for various reasons like taste, warmth and social aspects. People always want to find simple universal dietary rules.

Yeah but there are some great and true simple universal dietary/wellness rules. For instance, this one: Never let a doctor put you on medication for anxiety when you have not yet tried totally quitting caffeine for a couple months.

Re: The case against caffeine

#200

Post by theshrike79 »

_ink_ wrote: post #92
zeta0134 wrote: post #66

I tried this! I went completely caffeine free for over a year and was... fine? But way more tired all the time, and generally having trouble focusing on tasks. In my particular case, I suspect caffeine is a self administered coping mechanism for mild ADHD tendencies, and without that I became much more sensitive to the food I was eating and my changing energy levels throughout the day. Eventually I realized I had sto…

Yeah, I have the same feeling about ADHD. I would like to go decaf, I really do. Like higher blood pressure is already enough reason for me for quitting it. But when I don't drink caffeine, I cannot focus on anything anymore. Now I haven't been tested for ADHD so I don't have access to real ADHD meds. But those come with side effects as well, so I might just stay with caffeine.

I _had_ to quit caffeine last fall, my blood pressure was so high I could literally feel and hear it. (160/95-ish)

Quitting coffee and energy drinks did it for a while, but my sleep issues continued. I had to switch to caffeine free cola too and then my sleep started improving.

Now my BP has normalised around 125/80...

...But it seems I have been suppressing ADD symptoms with my caffeine intake for years and my brain is going 1000km/h and bouncing around. I sleep well and I'm not tired - but I can't focus for shit.

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