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PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

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Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#191

Post by etchalon »

palata wrote: post #122
etchalon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple's failure to provide sufficient capabilities for PWAs is a valid excuse here. If PWAs are limited competitively on the platform with the highest ROI for developers … that's a problem.

I think it is debatable. Can I make an iOS app in pure Python, and should Apple make it possible? I think Apple has the right to decide what kind of API they provide to their users. Just like nobody is forcing Tesla to allow running Windows "because some developers would like to run Windows apps in their Tesla". I can see a problem with the monopoly on the App Store given the dominant position of Apple. But if Apple…

That's not really the issue the OP is arguing though.

He's saying "PWAs have had 10 years to be good and dominant and they're not yet and that's on them."

I'm saying "Well, but, Apple."

Whether and how Apple should support PWAs is a separate conversation.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#192

Post by etchalon »

threeseed wrote: post #149
etchalon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple's failure to provide sufficient capabilities for PWAs is a valid excuse here. If PWAs are limited competitively on the platform with the highest ROI for developers … that's a problem.

There is always some API that is missing for PWAs to explode in popularity. And then when you pin someone down it's never actually about APIs or capabilities. It's about the ability to deploy apps to your phone whenever they like with full access to everything and nothing in their way.

This I generally agree with.

Native apps will always gain capabilities before PWAs, and some capabilities will never be granted to PWAs for incredibly sane reasons.

However, for many apps, Push Notifications was the only real reason they couldn't be a PWA.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#193

Post by layer8 »

andix wrote: post #181
layer8 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smartphones are now required by the EU to provide updates for five years. Samsung even promises seven years now.

I guess only security updates are mandated. With an iPhone you always get the newest version of iOS and many/most new features, not just some patches.

No, besides security updates the regulation also covers corrective updates (i.e. bugfixes) and functionality updates for “the same OS”.

Personally I would actually prefer stability over having the system and UI changing every year, and getting slower every year on older hardware.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#194

Post by palata »

sccxy wrote: post #162
palata wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I also consider Apple’s iron grip on the platform to be against the spirit of computing But the problem here is the App Store, right? Both native iOS apps and PWAs need access to the hardware, which is provided by Apple. Really my understanding is that people push hard for PWAs either because they want to work around the App Store, or because they are web dev (and every dev tends to be imperialist with their fa…

People just like the open web. PWAs are part of the open web. It's not so fun when Apple decides to change the app store rules and now your app is banned forever. There is no guarantee that your app won't disappear from the App Store tomorrow.

> People just like the open web. PWAs are part of the open web.

"Open" is relative in this context: I can't just go merge any code I want into Chromium so that I can distribute my cool app with my very custom feature to all the Chromium users, can I?

Because some people like PWAs (and what they represent) does not mean that private companies should be forced to support them.

> There is no guarantee that your app won't disappear from the App Store tomorrow.

That is completely different debate, unrelated to PWAs, right?

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#195

Post by madeofpalk »

jwells89 wrote: post #75
madeofpalk wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you need to 'install' a restaurant app/website? That's the perfect usecase for like... a website.

For quick access without cluttering browser tabs and bookmarks.

Why would you need quick access to one restaurant’s menu?

If you go there infrequently, I don’t understand why you would clutter up any part of my phone - bookmarks or Home Screen - with its menu. If you go there frequently… you already know the menu?

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#196

Post by burnerthrow008 »

andix wrote: post #178
burnerthrow008 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to your edit: I doubt it. 1. Remember, the EC feels that American tech companies are unfairly stifling competition from European tech companies. They’re not going to just wholesale ban monetization of intellectual property, which is what banning the core technology fee would do—that’s not a useful precedent if you’re trying to boost the euro tech scene. 2. It really feels like most of the arguments agains…

What the EC wants is more or less what you get with Windows, macOS or Android. Being able to install apps from any source and being able to buy apps from any app store/vendor without them being forced to pay commission/fees to Apple. It doesn't have any connection to "monetization of intellectual property", just look at Windows, Android, macOS, and all other operating systems. iOS can stay closed source, Apple can ke…

> What the EC wants is more or less what you get with Windows, macOS or Android.

That’s the what not the why. The why is that they want a tech industry in Europe that’s worthy of the term.

> It doesn't have any connection to "monetization of intellectual property", just look at Windows, Android, macOS, and all other operating systems.

Yes, look at them. And don’t stop there. Look at game consoles and the Epic store, for that matter. Companies license their intellectual property to other companies all the time. To use VSCode for commercial windows development, you must pay the Microsoft tax. You must pay to use Epic’s game engine commercially. So why can’t Apple charge to use their SDK too?

The point is that Europe isn’t going to have much of a tech industry if the EC sets the precedent that you can’t charge money for IP.

> But they shouldn't be able to be a "gate keeper" and charge commission to third parties releasing apps/content on their platform.

Ok, so now we’re back to “not allowed to charge for their IP”. Which is contrary to the goal of having a European tech industry.

But, are you even reading what you’re writing? You’d be ok with Apple just completely shutting out 3rd party apps, but you’re not ok with them allowing 3rd parties to license certain tech?

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#197

Post by Shadowmist »

gwill wrote: post #115
PaulHoule wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't we just give up on the "Progressive" branding and just say we are making Web Apps? There are just so many things that make "PWA" a bad smell. I mean, have you ever asked a user if they need more spam spamifications in their life? (Yeah, your app does and 95% say "hell no") Personally I find it much easier to find web sites with Safari (until last week I would hit "1" and Safari would automatically show me my RS…

fyi if you pull down in the middle of any home screen a global search shows up. i just keep one screen of my most used apps then search for all the others

I started doing this after hitting the maximum number of pages. New apps didn’t have anywhere to go and I was forced to use search anyways. The App Library to the right is pretty nice and groups things by category so I don’t have to move icons between pages anymore which was very annoying.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#198

Post by jwells89 »

madeofpalk wrote: post #195
jwells89 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For quick access without cluttering browser tabs and bookmarks.

Why would you need quick access to one restaurant’s menu? If you go there infrequently, I don’t understand why you would clutter up any part of my phone - bookmarks or Home Screen - with its menu. If you go there frequently… you already know the menu?

> If you go there frequently… you already know the menu?

For most places, but there are a handful that have huge menus. Its name escapes me but for instance when I lived in SF there was a sandwich place I frequented that was one such shop and aside from a couple of favorites I could never remember everything they had.

Also, these sites tend to facilitate ordering ahead, ordering delivery etc too so it’s not just a static HTML file.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#199

Post by palata »

DANmode wrote: post #158
palata wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you develop an Android PWA without having a single Android device to test it on, then maybe you should not develop an Android app at all. Same applies for iOS.

Android emulators for development are: 1) mostly free 2) ...even somewhat available on iPads! Is it even necessary ? Safari seems to be the only odd one out that can't even properly implement CSS, out of the top 5 modern browsers. I'm super glad all of these ridiculous "arguments" are being put on display.

Can I run an Android emulator on my musl-based system? Can I even run Android-Studio on OpenBSD? What about Plan9? Should I complain to Google because they don't support all the platforms under the sun?

If I want to develop with Qualcomm boards, I need to sign all sorts of NDAs, and they don't even have emulators for development. Do you think that should be illegal?

I wish we tried to honestly make the difference between what is an inconvenience ("I don't want to need a macOS system to deploy on iOS") and what is abuse ("Apple removed my app from their Store because it was competing with theirs").

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#200

Post by palata »

paulddraper wrote: post #172
palata wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you develop an Android PWA without having a single Android device to test it on, then maybe you should not develop an Android app at all. Same applies for iOS.

1. Android emulators exist. 2. It's not crazy to require a ___ device to develop ___ apps. But are you honestly claiming you can develop iPhone apps with an iPhone?

If you don't want to develop for iOS, then don't. I don't see why it should be written in the law that Apple has to make it appealing to you.
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