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Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#191

Post by julianeon »

mcmoor wrote: post #69
Rayhem wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubt quantum physicists know what they are talking about but...I always think it is the kind of excuse a schoolkid would give their teachers for their calculations being wrong. Just to emphasize how extreme this dichotomy is, not only is quantum mechanics correct (in that it's a predictive model), it's the most correct physical theory humans have ever devised in that the measurements there have more sign…

It's interesting that semiconductor engineers have to directly wrestle with the magic that's quantum tunneling. This theory is really not just a theory.

The other famous example is PET scanners, which actually use a form of antimatter: positrons (the antimatter counterpart of electrons).

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#192

Post by FridgeSeal »

ccozan wrote: post #77
retrac wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a variation on the anthropic principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle Maybe a kind of observer bias. If the universe weren't seemingly-perfectly balanced to allow emergent complexity in matter, we wouldn't be here to point out how seemingly-perfect it seems. (If you subscribe to a multiverse interpretation, perhaps most of the infinitely many other possible universes are dead and void.)

An interesting point. How about the universe kept starting and collapsing/crashing in an infinite loop until by chance the electron and the proton had the exact charge and the universe as it is now could go beyong the initial stage and could continue? ( Ok this feels like a trial an error of somebody playing universe ).

Sssshhhh, you’ll summon all the simulation people out of the woodwork!

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#193

Post by twic »

calamari4065 wrote: post #122
a_gnostic wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number assigned to charge is an arbitrary convention. You could assign quarks with full numbered charges, instead of fractions, but you'd have to rework and recalculate all of physics and chemistry to get the new values right, and that's just too much work.

No matter what arbitrary value you assign to the electric charge, quarks will always be 1/3 of that. That's the problem in question, not the absolute value.

So quarks have a charge of 2 or -1, and a two of the former and one of the latter make a proton, which therefore has charge 3. An electron is elementary, but also has charge 3. The question is: that seems like a weird coincidence, how come it's like that?

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#194

Post by andoando »

Is it possible the universe is infinitely complex? i.e, "turtles all the way down?".

I find the concept of duality and replication in physics very interesting. Everything seems to have an opposite, with properties such that when these opposites come together, they form a bigger unit, which itself has an opposite.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#195

Post by tim333 »

blackhaj7 wrote: post #49

I have no doubt quantum physicists know what they are talking about but when I read stuff like: “changes its appearance depending on how it is probed" "you can’t even imagine how complicated it is" "the proton contains traces of particles called charm quarks that are heavier than the proton itself" I always think it is the kind of excuse a schoolkid would give their teachers for their calculations being wrong

Popular science writers on this stuff tend to be in a similar position to the teachers. The real physics is described in complex mathematics and doesn't translate to simple English very well.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#196

Post by tim333 »

indigoabstract wrote: post #11

> “In fact, you can’t even imagine how complicated it is.” Well, maybe someone could imagine it, otherwise, all that complexity would have led to a gargantuan number of bugs and the universe would have crashed..

This has always seemed to me one of the best arguments against the simulation hypothesis.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#197

Post by lazide »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #63
lazide wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the universe is old, then how do you expect atoms to exist if this was not the case?

Couldn't there be a different physics where protons had a charge of 0.5 and, therefore, every atomic nucleus would have twice as many protons as electrons? Or pick any other ratio you like. Or course, I don't mean to hand-wave away the potential implications of this. Maybe there would be no atomic nuclei in such a universe, for all I know. But if not, why not?

Sure. Some interesting thoughts in sibling comments too.

Personally, I find the taste of hot chocolate just as nice regardless of the exact mix of quarks composing its constituent elements.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#198

Post by p1mrx »

wruza wrote: post #184
p1mrx wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If perception emerged directly from chaos like that, wouldn't you expect to perceive chaos, rather than a rich world built upon billions of years of evolutionary history?

I don't think there's "rather than" in this idea. You surely will perceive every state that is perceivable at all, but time and continuity have no meaning here. Specific history is just an image that always exists only for an instant. Eventually that universe might enumerate all states, so they'd form all sorts of sequences, but that's coincidental.

Sure, such a universe would create all states, but if perception from chaos were possible, then there would be overwhelmingly more chaotic states to perceive than sensible ones, so you would expect to find yourself perceiving chaos.

I think perception cannot exist without a robust evolutionary history to build upon, which is why you perceive something sensible.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#199

Post by magicalhippo »

calamari4065 wrote: post #123
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why must protons and electrons be perfectly complementary regarding charge? According to QED's spin origin of charge, it's because charge comes from spin. What values a particle's spin can take are restricted to certain integer or half-integer values.

That just deflects the question one level down without explaining anything. "Because it is" is not a helpful answer to "why?"

Richard Feynman addresses a similar "why" question in a great way in this interview[1], and how "why" questions are problematic in science.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36GT2zI8lVA

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#200

Post by cooper_ganglia »

andoando wrote: post #194

Is it possible the universe is infinitely complex? i.e, "turtles all the way down?". I find the concept of duality and replication in physics very interesting. Everything seems to have an opposite, with properties such that when these opposites come together, they form a bigger unit, which itself has an opposite.

I don't "believe" too many things that can't be evidentiarily substantiated, but as silly of a thing to reference for this kind of discussion, I personally have the irrational, unscientific belief that this Simpsons opening is unironically the most accurate model of the Universe that we have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycvlJ9XMd94&ab_channel=cakta...

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